From: "Nathaniel Roberts" <npr4@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 16:31:51 -0400
I realize this is not a moderated list, but I would also like to humbly
register the opinion that post such as Sue's, as well as Elise's response,
are wildly off-topic --whatever other merits they might have.
I have no desire to silence anyone, and appreciate that the issues that they
are addressing are both intense and important. But it might make for a more
productive exchange if any further posts along these lines would attempt to
relate the discussion more explicitly to the ideas of Michel Foucault.
Whether doing so will be of any personal use to Sue or Elise, I cannot say.
But it am certain that this would allow put your experiences and insights
into a context that the rest of us will be able to learn much from.
On 6/16/06, elise thorburn <elise@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I oscillate between feeling sympathy with your situation and feeling
enraged at how foolish you make yourself out to be in your repsonses to a)
everything I post to the list, and b)anything that has the faintest wiff of
"feminism" associated with it.
You claim to write well, and yet fall into the same traps that the
Conservative right would use to attack the same people you are attacking. As
a white woman, I think you are in no position to make claims that "black
people can make it to the top" and thus women and men are being pushed to
the bottom. I also think the claim that women can "make it to the top"
ignores plenty of tangible evidence that they, in fact, still cannot.
As well, I wish you would cease with your judgements of me personally,
which have aboslutely no basis in reality. You ask in an earlier post
whether I got into university due to my husband or father, and in this post
claim that I get by on my "youthful sexual attractiveness" and/or money. I
do not intend to reveal any of my personal details to you, nor have I in the
past, so your specious personal assumptions betray the dishonesty in your
claims of being a good writer who is discriminated against based on ideology
alone. If you cannot even make an arguement without reverting to assumptions
about my (a complete stranger's) personal life, appearance and class status,
I place a great deal of scepticism on your claims of writerly ability.
I would ask you to re-examine the comments made regarding your research
and to reflect on why these comments would be made. Perhaps if you were
willing to incoroporate criticisms, or respond to them without ad hominem
attacks, I for one would be more willing to take seriously your comaplints
about an admittedly at times biased system. We all have said or written
things that others do not like. To claim that all negative responses to your
work on the Montreal Massacre are due to some Feminist Illuminati trying
desperately to maintain a power block from the likes of working class men
is, frankly, riduclous. It is not always the people in power who disagree
with controversial work. In fact, many times it is the most disenfranchised
who respond negatively to claims and statements such as yours, not because
they HAVE power, but because they are constantly having elements of power
wielded over the,
Finally, I do not take kindly to the suggestions that I have "won" (as in
I personally or "the feminists" as you continually refer to this diverse
movement). I do not think I have "won" anything, and your constant,
unrelenting use of the homogenous term "the feminists" and continued,
unreasonable and completely out of the blue attacks on me - which have been
going on for over 2 months now, since I first posted anything on the list
and which I must assume began due to the mere fact that I have a female name
- make me convinced that you are either delusional or merely a
conservative. Same difference really.
Please cease attacking me and making specious comments about my
intelligence, attractiveness, sexual orientation and percieved class status
to the whole list. I am willing to take up these issues with you in private,
though I must admit, I am more than a little tired of this strange and
Can you explain to me why I have been singled out for attack?
Yours in the struggle,
"old girls" network at work. And no one had a voice in it.
>I write, and I write well. Any supposed lack of ability is not an issue.
I am not permitted to discuss what happened at the university here where I
first began a PhD and ws then pushed out. Obviously, OBVIOUSLY, if there was
a problem it had to have been me, and not the professors. But I'll tell you,
the women are just as bad as the men.
>Marc Lepine was fucked by an unafair system, and it's happening to me.
There's nothing a person can do if people at the top take it into their
heads I will not be allowed to use my skills and abilities. Marc lepine
should not have killed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BUT WHAT SHOULD HE HAVE DONE.
>Please do not come back with any condescending comments, like make a
formal complaint, and other idiotic things. I realize you can make me appear
to be the one at fault (just as Marc Lepine was made the scapegoat) . It's
not difficult when you have the credibility and I have none, and you
have the money, the youthful sexual attractiveness, the middle class
status, and so on, that is desired.
>I live in despair, treated by my community as as lesser human being,
since being pushed out by Essex (yes, Rupert), I just got your post. When I
went to Essex their standards were low. And they have raised them, I'm sure,
in some ways, but they have also pretty much destroyed my life.
>I realize I can speak truths and not be heard, but why make accusations
now. I only wanted to complete my PhD degree, at Essex, where I had been
invited to come. When I say they destroyed my life I mean they started the
process which would lead to me being rejected for jobs (ah ha - something
happened at Essex, it couldn't have been the professors, it must have been
this woman), and at other universities I applied to to do the PhD.
>I have applied to do a PhD again, but there's no reason to think athis
point it will be accepted. There's too much in my past, and I have doubts
about any potential supervisor who makes the wild claim that he is judging
my proposal based on its merits. If I'm wrong, then the world will be a
better place. But there simply is no reason to think that that could be
>And that's how they get ya, you see. they keep you hoping, and keep you
silent, waiting. Well, I've waited ten fucking years. I don't stand a chance
now of ever gettting out of debt. I am 60 years old. I don't stand a chance
of doing what I had hoped to do.
>You win, Elise - you and the feminists at Western and the activists in
London and wherever else can all have a great time toaking about inequality,
and those hateful people like Marc Lepine and me, student name Sue Fulham.
Tell them, I can't keep writing and writing and not be heard.
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>Colchester. CO2 7EE
>Tel: 01206 540097