tony ralph wrote:
>Doug wrote:
>
>- "Hey, the U.S. has killed a million Iraqis with sanctions, does that count?"
>
>In relation to Kosovo, of course not.
>In relation to the US's hypocritical foreign policy stance, of course it does.
>
>Sadly, you think the bombing in Kosovo is linked to the bombing in Iraq,
>that the two theatres must be brought into a master plan of consistency so
>that there are no moral contradicitions, you demand the bombing stop until
>a utopian order has given birth to itself;
No, until popular pressure brings about a better order. Utopias exist only
in the imagination, and nothing gives birth to itself except maybe an
amoeba.
The point of bringing up Iraq is that the U.S. (and its junior partners in
NATO) don't give a damn about humanitarian catastrophes - they've created
far more of those than they solved. The humanitarian line is a product of
the PR campaign (quite literally the case - Ruder Finn is the publicist for
the war - see their client list at
<http://www.tumble.com/rf/b_client/b1g.htm>), but it's a cover for a
classically imperial mission: bringing Eastern Europe under firm Western
control, binding the EU to the NATO command structure (meaning, of course,
Washington), and guaranteeing a military presence on the Russian border.
>- "Who did kill tens of thousands of people, and how do you know that?"
>
>I cannot say the toll is over 10,000 and you cannot say the toll is under
>150,000. But what is the point of disputing the death toll when the next
>ten years of digging won't get the real answer? You appear to dispute that
>deaths are widespread. Are you dismissive of the assumption of cleansing?
Not at all. But Croatia "cleansed" hundreds of thousands of Serbs, with
U.S. cooperation and CIA advice. Once again, the selectivity of the outrage
should lead sensible people to doubt the public rationale.
>I'm assuming the Serbians are repeating their Bosnian example.
>I'm assuming the flood of refugees indicates a flight from horror.
Greatly worsened by the bombing.
>I'm assuming the massed Serbian troops and gangs in Kosovo mean business.
>I'm assuming tens of thousands of Kosovors have been killed.
According to the UN, 2,000 people died in Kosovo last year, many of them
KLA combatants and Serb cops the KLA was killing. That's 2,000 too many,
but how many people has NATO killed so far?
>You are assuming that the Serbia wants a peaceful and just solution.
No. The Serbian regime is racist and oppressive. So is the Croat regime. So
is the KLA. It's all ugly, and NATO has only made it uglier.
>You are assuming that diplomacy was not given a chance.
>You are assuming a win win can be negotiated.
>You are assuming hundreds of Kosovors have been killed.
>
>I only wish that my expectations where utopian dreams.
Your view of the U.S. and NATO is the most utopian thing around here.
Doug
>Doug wrote:
>
>- "Hey, the U.S. has killed a million Iraqis with sanctions, does that count?"
>
>In relation to Kosovo, of course not.
>In relation to the US's hypocritical foreign policy stance, of course it does.
>
>Sadly, you think the bombing in Kosovo is linked to the bombing in Iraq,
>that the two theatres must be brought into a master plan of consistency so
>that there are no moral contradicitions, you demand the bombing stop until
>a utopian order has given birth to itself;
No, until popular pressure brings about a better order. Utopias exist only
in the imagination, and nothing gives birth to itself except maybe an
amoeba.
The point of bringing up Iraq is that the U.S. (and its junior partners in
NATO) don't give a damn about humanitarian catastrophes - they've created
far more of those than they solved. The humanitarian line is a product of
the PR campaign (quite literally the case - Ruder Finn is the publicist for
the war - see their client list at
<http://www.tumble.com/rf/b_client/b1g.htm>), but it's a cover for a
classically imperial mission: bringing Eastern Europe under firm Western
control, binding the EU to the NATO command structure (meaning, of course,
Washington), and guaranteeing a military presence on the Russian border.
>- "Who did kill tens of thousands of people, and how do you know that?"
>
>I cannot say the toll is over 10,000 and you cannot say the toll is under
>150,000. But what is the point of disputing the death toll when the next
>ten years of digging won't get the real answer? You appear to dispute that
>deaths are widespread. Are you dismissive of the assumption of cleansing?
Not at all. But Croatia "cleansed" hundreds of thousands of Serbs, with
U.S. cooperation and CIA advice. Once again, the selectivity of the outrage
should lead sensible people to doubt the public rationale.
>I'm assuming the Serbians are repeating their Bosnian example.
>I'm assuming the flood of refugees indicates a flight from horror.
Greatly worsened by the bombing.
>I'm assuming the massed Serbian troops and gangs in Kosovo mean business.
>I'm assuming tens of thousands of Kosovors have been killed.
According to the UN, 2,000 people died in Kosovo last year, many of them
KLA combatants and Serb cops the KLA was killing. That's 2,000 too many,
but how many people has NATO killed so far?
>You are assuming that the Serbia wants a peaceful and just solution.
No. The Serbian regime is racist and oppressive. So is the Croat regime. So
is the KLA. It's all ugly, and NATO has only made it uglier.
>You are assuming that diplomacy was not given a chance.
>You are assuming a win win can be negotiated.
>You are assuming hundreds of Kosovors have been killed.
>
>I only wish that my expectations where utopian dreams.
Your view of the U.S. and NATO is the most utopian thing around here.
Doug