Do You know the word shantage? My suggestion was that
"Nationalism" is a western notion, rather than a fact,
with which the west is trying to shantage ( blackmail)
the other world. For example: CNN sais " In
Yougoslavia they are nationalists, thats why we should
proclaim war to them" So, in this case, the west
inhabitants understand what is nationalism, and they
give their votes for war. But the other world does not
understand what is "nationalism"- it isnt in the
dictionary of the rest world. Si "nationalism" is
specific word, with which the west is backmailing the
world. That was my suggestion.
Jivko
--- Erik Hoogcarspel <jehms@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
> Ali Rizvi wrote:
>
> > Knowing where nationalism came from tells us
> almost nothing about its
> > configurations and how it will be adapted in
> cultures that are
> > receptive to it. For instance, Michael Ignatieff
> distinguishes between
> > "civic nationalism" and "ethnic nationalism." In
> civic nationalism the
> > bonds of a political community are defined by a
> common creed and set
> > of political institutions. In ethnic nationalism,
> the community is
> > thought to belong to people marked by ethnic
> bonds.
> >
> Maybe nationalism is even a 17th century Dutch
> invention, because the
> Dutch were the first to free themselves as a nation
> from the dominance
> of an emporer. This doesn't mean however that the
> Tibetans in the 21th
> century, who also feel like a nation occupied by a
> strange army, have
> any knowledge of the becoming of the Dutch state or
> that you need to
> know this in order to understand what they feel.
> Many of them even
> cannot read! I think you are too much influenced by
> Heidegger who
> thought that everything is historical and that
> philosophy is just as
> part of Western history as the battle of Waterloo.
> In 'Antropologie
> Structurale' Levi-Strauss mocks those who think that
> everything must
> come from influences from outside. Well,
> Levi-Strauss says it's very
> well possible that different people at different
> times in different
> places get similar ideas and I don't see how you can
> prove him to be wrong.
>
> > yes but one should also ask such questions as, why
> is it that the
> > spread of nationalism in Kurdish people leads
> (invariably) to spread
> > of Western values and life styles in them and
> leads them away from
> > their Islamic heritage?. Or one should also ask
> why spread of
> > nationalism in Japan makes her increasingly a
> country less and
> > less recognisable as distinct society from Western
> societies? I would
> > think that avoiding these question might also lead
> to laziness.
> >
> I know Kurdish people who trace their identity back
> to pre-islamic
> times. I think the islamic identity is a myth (just
> as any identity).
> The spread of western ideas may not be as important
> as you think.
> Science is western and it spreads because it's can
> prove itself to be
> effective, but maybe it also spreads, because it can
> be understood from
> within many ideologies. What however is spread much
> more everywhere are
> Western things. If Japanese wear skirts and suits
> with neckties in stead
> of kimono's and drink more Coca Cola then green tea,
> it doesn't mean
> that they have changed entirely. Even if they work
> in an scientific
> laboratory it might be hard to determine. I think
> it's quite difficult
> to find out in what way they have changed, because
> people always
> change. You cannot say that people have been their
> own old original
> self all along untill an event X just made them to
> be something else.
>
> erik
>
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"Nationalism" is a western notion, rather than a fact,
with which the west is trying to shantage ( blackmail)
the other world. For example: CNN sais " In
Yougoslavia they are nationalists, thats why we should
proclaim war to them" So, in this case, the west
inhabitants understand what is nationalism, and they
give their votes for war. But the other world does not
understand what is "nationalism"- it isnt in the
dictionary of the rest world. Si "nationalism" is
specific word, with which the west is backmailing the
world. That was my suggestion.
Jivko
--- Erik Hoogcarspel <jehms@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
> Ali Rizvi wrote:
>
> > Knowing where nationalism came from tells us
> almost nothing about its
> > configurations and how it will be adapted in
> cultures that are
> > receptive to it. For instance, Michael Ignatieff
> distinguishes between
> > "civic nationalism" and "ethnic nationalism." In
> civic nationalism the
> > bonds of a political community are defined by a
> common creed and set
> > of political institutions. In ethnic nationalism,
> the community is
> > thought to belong to people marked by ethnic
> bonds.
> >
> Maybe nationalism is even a 17th century Dutch
> invention, because the
> Dutch were the first to free themselves as a nation
> from the dominance
> of an emporer. This doesn't mean however that the
> Tibetans in the 21th
> century, who also feel like a nation occupied by a
> strange army, have
> any knowledge of the becoming of the Dutch state or
> that you need to
> know this in order to understand what they feel.
> Many of them even
> cannot read! I think you are too much influenced by
> Heidegger who
> thought that everything is historical and that
> philosophy is just as
> part of Western history as the battle of Waterloo.
> In 'Antropologie
> Structurale' Levi-Strauss mocks those who think that
> everything must
> come from influences from outside. Well,
> Levi-Strauss says it's very
> well possible that different people at different
> times in different
> places get similar ideas and I don't see how you can
> prove him to be wrong.
>
> > yes but one should also ask such questions as, why
> is it that the
> > spread of nationalism in Kurdish people leads
> (invariably) to spread
> > of Western values and life styles in them and
> leads them away from
> > their Islamic heritage?. Or one should also ask
> why spread of
> > nationalism in Japan makes her increasingly a
> country less and
> > less recognisable as distinct society from Western
> societies? I would
> > think that avoiding these question might also lead
> to laziness.
> >
> I know Kurdish people who trace their identity back
> to pre-islamic
> times. I think the islamic identity is a myth (just
> as any identity).
> The spread of western ideas may not be as important
> as you think.
> Science is western and it spreads because it's can
> prove itself to be
> effective, but maybe it also spreads, because it can
> be understood from
> within many ideologies. What however is spread much
> more everywhere are
> Western things. If Japanese wear skirts and suits
> with neckties in stead
> of kimono's and drink more Coca Cola then green tea,
> it doesn't mean
> that they have changed entirely. Even if they work
> in an scientific
> laboratory it might be hard to determine. I think
> it's quite difficult
> to find out in what way they have changed, because
> people always
> change. You cannot say that people have been their
> own old original
> self all along untill an event X just made them to
> be something else.
>
> erik
>
__________________________________________________
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Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/