Carlos, I think the points below are very valid. The ANC have behaved
disgracefully since taking power - I am reminded of Fanon on these matters.
I think the Mbeki leadership behaves in relation to AIDS - a bit like Mugabe
does in relation to land. Locating a cause in something other than their own
watch is a time honoured tactic of evading the issue
Anthony
----- Original Message -----
From: "max neill" <meneilu2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
> Hi Carlinhos,
>
> From what I have read from South African Marxists, they tend to accept the
> scientists argument that HIV causes AIDS, and are critical of Thabo
Mbeki's
> reluctance to accept this, arguing that it is a smokescreen to disguise
the
> South African state's reluctance to invest in the medication neccessary to
> combat AIDS in South Africa.
>
> They argue that if Thabo were really concerned about poverty, and the
poor,
> he would not have launched the major privatisations that have been carried
> out by the South African government.
>
> The failure of the South African government, at least for a period, to
take
> the question of AIDS seriously actually contributed to the suffering of
the
> South African poor.
>
> Those scientists however who refuse to allow their work to be questioned
need
> to look back at the philosophy of 'scientific method' in which it is
> legitimate to question all authorities, and that good critical questioning
> actually tests andstrengthens well-grounded hypotheses. The real power
> relations within the scientific and biomedical discourse clearly do not
match
> exactly this ideal of the scientific method.
>
> "We speak and the word goes beyond us to consequences and ends which we
had
> not conceived of" Gadamer
>
>
> ---------- Original Message -----------
> From: Carlinhos Puig <carlinhospu@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:03:55 -0200
> Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
>
> > Hi Anthony,
> >
> > I´m relieved to see what you mean. My preocupation with the HIV/AIDS
> > issue is due to have seen many people being terrified by having an
> > exam, by the idea of having a disease that will kill them, and, in
> > the other hand, knowing those who are told they are HIV+, but are
> > healthy. I also lost a friend, in the times of AZT, who clearly died
> > out of fear. The more scared he got, the sicker, and, afterwords,
> > people said that he who takes AZT doesn´t need anything else to die
> > of, it does kill you. All that made me look for more information,
> > and finding the dissidents made me question "what if", what if HIV
> > does not cause any syndrome? Also, the reactions of some of the
> > medical doctors I worked with, their reaction over just my
> > questioning whether someone who is not sick at all should take any
> > medication, and whether there wouldn´t be any other factors that
> > influence ones immunity, not only the T4 cells (and, in fact,
> > immunity is a very very complex system), they just went mad at me.
> > The simple questioning made them get very angry and treat me as if I
> > was crasy, or as I was some kind of cruel perverse person. Their
> > power over life and death could not be question. That made me get
> > closer to the subject, and I only brought it here after someone
> > having mentioned it. I also do not like marxist thinking, never did.
> >
> > Carlos
> >
> > Em 15 Dec 2003, foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx escreveu:
> >
> > >Carlos, I merely posed the question rather than offered the answer! I
> > >suppose I am tempted to think at times that Marxism is the opium of the
> > >Marxists. I am not hostile to Marxist descriptions - it is when it
seeks
> to
> > >prescribe that we run into all matter of difficulties. It leads me to
> think
> > >that it is just people with an eye for opportunity trying to create
what
> > >they feel is a power vacuum and then move to persuade or coerce the
rest
> of
> > >us into believing that the vacuum can only be filled by 'the party.'
The
> > >best way to problematise the matter in my view is to move to the level
of
> > >micro power and look at how each of the dominant institutions you
referred
> > >to is constituted in terms of their own internal dynamics and
discourses.
> > >This avoids the Marxist problem of finding some hidden societal essence
> > >which will come through once the veil of mystification has been pulled
> away
> > >leaving us to gaze on how capital in fact constitutes each of the
> > >institutions. Then we avoid the problem of thinking that the dissidents
> you
> > >refer to are brought together as a result of their class
consciousness -
> > >their dissent, their oppositionalism is to be situated in the peculiar
> > >discourse of their particular institution. Consequently, they may never
> > find
> > >common purpose. The Marxists in turn will then ask if this is not just
a
> > >reversion to pluralist thinking. Although in both pluralism and Marxism
> the
> > >question of power is deal with as a resource - power is a battery
rather
> > >than the electricity that comes through the battery. Some way to go yet
in
> > >finding a problematisation that is stronger and more persuasive than
the
> > >counter problematization it invariably throws up
> > >
> > >Anthony
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Carlinhos Puig"
> > >To:
> > >Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 2:59 PM
> > >Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
> > >
> > >> Anthony,
> > >>
> > >> Thank you, here you got me!
> > >> I do not like the Marxist analysis. But, as a beginner, I see myself
> > >caught
> > >> in that discourse. Could you help me out? How can we problematize
this
> > >issue
> > >> in a better way?
> > >> We have a "truth" considered by the majority as so, which is that HIV
> > >causes
> > >> AIDS. We have many scientists that question that truth. We have cases
of
> > >> people, individuals, and we have a context of media, official
scientific
> > >> press, and a culture of fear over the syndrome. How could we
> problematize
> > >> that, in dispite the fact that we don´t know whether those scientists
so
> > >> called dissidents are, in fact, aproaching the issue in a way that
...
> > >that
> > >> what? I don´t even know how to put it.
> > >> I don´t know whether it is whorthwhile, but this could be a good
> > exercise.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks again,
> > >>
> > >> Carlos
> > >>
> > >> Em 14 Dec 2003, foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx escreveu:
> > >>
> > >> >Carlos, this seems very true but how would it differ from a Marxist
> > >> analysis
> > >> >of the same subject? The marginalisation, demonisation, role of the
> > >> >pharmecutical companies all seems to be the way Marxists would
describe
> > >it
> > >> >
> > >> >Anthony
> > >> >----- Original Message -----
> > >> >From: "Carlinhos Puig"
> > >> >To:
> > >> >Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 12:16 PM
> > >> >Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
> > >> >
> > >> >> Anthony,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Well, yes, I must agree with you, but that similarity does not
change
> > >the
> > >> >> problem of HIV/AIDS. Dissidents are people who are doctors,
> > phisitians,
> > >> >> researchers, people from all around the world, and they do
describe
> > the
> > >> >> problem in a very reasonable way. Their view is that aids could be
> > >caused
> > >> >by
> > >> >> the way of life of a person - using drugs, starvation, compulsive
> sex,
> > >> and
> > >> >> they do include cigarette smoking as an activity that causes
> > >> >> immunodeficiency.
> > >> >> What strikes me in that controversy is the fact that very reliable
> > >> >> scientists cease to have a voice in the official medical press,
are
> > >> >> ridiculized in the media, after just questioning a more accurate
> > >research
> > >> >> before stating something as a truth.
> > >> >> Personally, I am acquainted with quite a number of people who are
HIV
> > >+,
> > >> >but
> > >> >> do try to live a healthy life (some of these people just refuse to
> > take
> > >> >any
> > >> >> medication at all) and none of them is getting sick, in a period
of
> > >over
> > >> >ten
> > >> >> years. Actually, they seem to be healthier than me, and I do smoke
> > >> tobaco,
> > >> >> but I´m not labeled HIV+.
> > >> >> I cannot be sure about what is really happening, but a fact is
that
> > >those
> > >> >> scientists do have a good point on the issue, but the world deals
> with
> > >> >aids
> > >> >> in a very sensationalist way. And no one can deny that the
> > >farmaceutical
> > >> >> industry does have quite a big lot of profit out of selling
> medication
> > >to
> > >> >> that syndrome.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Carlos
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Em 13 Dec 2003, foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx escreveu:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >Carlos, while there is merit to your point do you not think that
a
> > >> >> >similarity can be drawn with the tobacco industry which disputes
the
> > >> link
> > >> >> >between cigarettes and cancer?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Anthony
> > >> >> >----- Original Message -----
> > >> >> >From: "Carlinhos Puig"
> > >> >> >To:
> > >> >> >Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 10:55 PM
> > >> >> >Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >> Hi,
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> I really believe Foucault would be another personallity signing
> the
> > >> >list
> > >> >> >of
> > >> >> >> the "Dissidents of Aids", the group of scientists who question
the
> > >> fact
> > >> >> >that
> > >> >> >> there is no scientific proof that it is the HIV virus that
causes
> > >the
> > >> >> >> sindrome. I think Foucault would line up with South Africa´s
> > >> president,
> > >> >> >> standing up for having food for people who die of symptoms that
> are
> > >> >> >> considered aids, in Africa, but who are starving, and have not
> been
> > >> >> tested
> > >> >> >> (an HIV test would cost an amount that is unafordable to people
> who
> > >> are
> > >> >> >> starving, starvation have very similar symptoms to those
> attributed
> > >to
> > >> >> >> AIDS).
> > >> >> >> I think Foucault would question the farmaceutical industry,
whith
> > >> >bilions
> > >> >> >a
> > >> >> >> year involved in the discussion. He would argue and stand for a
> > >Nobel
> > >> >> >Prize
> > >> >> >> scientist who has no voice any longer in the official medical
> > press,
> > >> >the
> > >> >> >> same one who developed the exam that tells HIV+ people the
> > "quantity
> > >> of
> > >> >> >> virus" they have, and he has told the world, after receiving
the
> > >Nobel
> > >> >> >> Prize, that what he had developed wouldn´t be good to test HIV,
> and
> > >> so,
> > >> >> he
> > >> >> >> was "banished" from the medical society.
> > >> >> >> If anyone here is thinking this brazilian student is being
> > >"paranoic"
> > >> >or
> > >> >> >is
> > >> >> >> having "conspiratory thinking" do search for the words 'Aids
> > >> >dissidents'
> > >> >> >and
> > >> >> >> see their point of view. Power? That´s a good example IF they
are
> > to
> > >> be
> > >> >> >> right.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Carlos
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> _________________________________________________________
> > >> >> >> Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
> > >> >> >> Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
> > >> >> >> Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >----------
> > >> >>
> > >> >> _________________________________________________________
> > >> >> Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
> > >> >> Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
> > >> >> Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >----------
> > >>
> > >> _________________________________________________________
> > >> Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
> > >> Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
> > >> Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >----------
> >
> > _________________________________________________________
> > Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
> > Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
> > Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
> ------- End of Original Message -------
>
>
disgracefully since taking power - I am reminded of Fanon on these matters.
I think the Mbeki leadership behaves in relation to AIDS - a bit like Mugabe
does in relation to land. Locating a cause in something other than their own
watch is a time honoured tactic of evading the issue
Anthony
----- Original Message -----
From: "max neill" <meneilu2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
> Hi Carlinhos,
>
> From what I have read from South African Marxists, they tend to accept the
> scientists argument that HIV causes AIDS, and are critical of Thabo
Mbeki's
> reluctance to accept this, arguing that it is a smokescreen to disguise
the
> South African state's reluctance to invest in the medication neccessary to
> combat AIDS in South Africa.
>
> They argue that if Thabo were really concerned about poverty, and the
poor,
> he would not have launched the major privatisations that have been carried
> out by the South African government.
>
> The failure of the South African government, at least for a period, to
take
> the question of AIDS seriously actually contributed to the suffering of
the
> South African poor.
>
> Those scientists however who refuse to allow their work to be questioned
need
> to look back at the philosophy of 'scientific method' in which it is
> legitimate to question all authorities, and that good critical questioning
> actually tests andstrengthens well-grounded hypotheses. The real power
> relations within the scientific and biomedical discourse clearly do not
match
> exactly this ideal of the scientific method.
>
> "We speak and the word goes beyond us to consequences and ends which we
had
> not conceived of" Gadamer
>
>
> ---------- Original Message -----------
> From: Carlinhos Puig <carlinhospu@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:03:55 -0200
> Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
>
> > Hi Anthony,
> >
> > I´m relieved to see what you mean. My preocupation with the HIV/AIDS
> > issue is due to have seen many people being terrified by having an
> > exam, by the idea of having a disease that will kill them, and, in
> > the other hand, knowing those who are told they are HIV+, but are
> > healthy. I also lost a friend, in the times of AZT, who clearly died
> > out of fear. The more scared he got, the sicker, and, afterwords,
> > people said that he who takes AZT doesn´t need anything else to die
> > of, it does kill you. All that made me look for more information,
> > and finding the dissidents made me question "what if", what if HIV
> > does not cause any syndrome? Also, the reactions of some of the
> > medical doctors I worked with, their reaction over just my
> > questioning whether someone who is not sick at all should take any
> > medication, and whether there wouldn´t be any other factors that
> > influence ones immunity, not only the T4 cells (and, in fact,
> > immunity is a very very complex system), they just went mad at me.
> > The simple questioning made them get very angry and treat me as if I
> > was crasy, or as I was some kind of cruel perverse person. Their
> > power over life and death could not be question. That made me get
> > closer to the subject, and I only brought it here after someone
> > having mentioned it. I also do not like marxist thinking, never did.
> >
> > Carlos
> >
> > Em 15 Dec 2003, foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx escreveu:
> >
> > >Carlos, I merely posed the question rather than offered the answer! I
> > >suppose I am tempted to think at times that Marxism is the opium of the
> > >Marxists. I am not hostile to Marxist descriptions - it is when it
seeks
> to
> > >prescribe that we run into all matter of difficulties. It leads me to
> think
> > >that it is just people with an eye for opportunity trying to create
what
> > >they feel is a power vacuum and then move to persuade or coerce the
rest
> of
> > >us into believing that the vacuum can only be filled by 'the party.'
The
> > >best way to problematise the matter in my view is to move to the level
of
> > >micro power and look at how each of the dominant institutions you
referred
> > >to is constituted in terms of their own internal dynamics and
discourses.
> > >This avoids the Marxist problem of finding some hidden societal essence
> > >which will come through once the veil of mystification has been pulled
> away
> > >leaving us to gaze on how capital in fact constitutes each of the
> > >institutions. Then we avoid the problem of thinking that the dissidents
> you
> > >refer to are brought together as a result of their class
consciousness -
> > >their dissent, their oppositionalism is to be situated in the peculiar
> > >discourse of their particular institution. Consequently, they may never
> > find
> > >common purpose. The Marxists in turn will then ask if this is not just
a
> > >reversion to pluralist thinking. Although in both pluralism and Marxism
> the
> > >question of power is deal with as a resource - power is a battery
rather
> > >than the electricity that comes through the battery. Some way to go yet
in
> > >finding a problematisation that is stronger and more persuasive than
the
> > >counter problematization it invariably throws up
> > >
> > >Anthony
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Carlinhos Puig"
> > >To:
> > >Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 2:59 PM
> > >Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
> > >
> > >> Anthony,
> > >>
> > >> Thank you, here you got me!
> > >> I do not like the Marxist analysis. But, as a beginner, I see myself
> > >caught
> > >> in that discourse. Could you help me out? How can we problematize
this
> > >issue
> > >> in a better way?
> > >> We have a "truth" considered by the majority as so, which is that HIV
> > >causes
> > >> AIDS. We have many scientists that question that truth. We have cases
of
> > >> people, individuals, and we have a context of media, official
scientific
> > >> press, and a culture of fear over the syndrome. How could we
> problematize
> > >> that, in dispite the fact that we don´t know whether those scientists
so
> > >> called dissidents are, in fact, aproaching the issue in a way that
...
> > >that
> > >> what? I don´t even know how to put it.
> > >> I don´t know whether it is whorthwhile, but this could be a good
> > exercise.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks again,
> > >>
> > >> Carlos
> > >>
> > >> Em 14 Dec 2003, foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx escreveu:
> > >>
> > >> >Carlos, this seems very true but how would it differ from a Marxist
> > >> analysis
> > >> >of the same subject? The marginalisation, demonisation, role of the
> > >> >pharmecutical companies all seems to be the way Marxists would
describe
> > >it
> > >> >
> > >> >Anthony
> > >> >----- Original Message -----
> > >> >From: "Carlinhos Puig"
> > >> >To:
> > >> >Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 12:16 PM
> > >> >Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
> > >> >
> > >> >> Anthony,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Well, yes, I must agree with you, but that similarity does not
change
> > >the
> > >> >> problem of HIV/AIDS. Dissidents are people who are doctors,
> > phisitians,
> > >> >> researchers, people from all around the world, and they do
describe
> > the
> > >> >> problem in a very reasonable way. Their view is that aids could be
> > >caused
> > >> >by
> > >> >> the way of life of a person - using drugs, starvation, compulsive
> sex,
> > >> and
> > >> >> they do include cigarette smoking as an activity that causes
> > >> >> immunodeficiency.
> > >> >> What strikes me in that controversy is the fact that very reliable
> > >> >> scientists cease to have a voice in the official medical press,
are
> > >> >> ridiculized in the media, after just questioning a more accurate
> > >research
> > >> >> before stating something as a truth.
> > >> >> Personally, I am acquainted with quite a number of people who are
HIV
> > >+,
> > >> >but
> > >> >> do try to live a healthy life (some of these people just refuse to
> > take
> > >> >any
> > >> >> medication at all) and none of them is getting sick, in a period
of
> > >over
> > >> >ten
> > >> >> years. Actually, they seem to be healthier than me, and I do smoke
> > >> tobaco,
> > >> >> but I´m not labeled HIV+.
> > >> >> I cannot be sure about what is really happening, but a fact is
that
> > >those
> > >> >> scientists do have a good point on the issue, but the world deals
> with
> > >> >aids
> > >> >> in a very sensationalist way. And no one can deny that the
> > >farmaceutical
> > >> >> industry does have quite a big lot of profit out of selling
> medication
> > >to
> > >> >> that syndrome.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Carlos
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Em 13 Dec 2003, foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx escreveu:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >Carlos, while there is merit to your point do you not think that
a
> > >> >> >similarity can be drawn with the tobacco industry which disputes
the
> > >> link
> > >> >> >between cigarettes and cancer?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Anthony
> > >> >> >----- Original Message -----
> > >> >> >From: "Carlinhos Puig"
> > >> >> >To:
> > >> >> >Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 10:55 PM
> > >> >> >Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >> Hi,
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> I really believe Foucault would be another personallity signing
> the
> > >> >list
> > >> >> >of
> > >> >> >> the "Dissidents of Aids", the group of scientists who question
the
> > >> fact
> > >> >> >that
> > >> >> >> there is no scientific proof that it is the HIV virus that
causes
> > >the
> > >> >> >> sindrome. I think Foucault would line up with South Africa´s
> > >> president,
> > >> >> >> standing up for having food for people who die of symptoms that
> are
> > >> >> >> considered aids, in Africa, but who are starving, and have not
> been
> > >> >> tested
> > >> >> >> (an HIV test would cost an amount that is unafordable to people
> who
> > >> are
> > >> >> >> starving, starvation have very similar symptoms to those
> attributed
> > >to
> > >> >> >> AIDS).
> > >> >> >> I think Foucault would question the farmaceutical industry,
whith
> > >> >bilions
> > >> >> >a
> > >> >> >> year involved in the discussion. He would argue and stand for a
> > >Nobel
> > >> >> >Prize
> > >> >> >> scientist who has no voice any longer in the official medical
> > press,
> > >> >the
> > >> >> >> same one who developed the exam that tells HIV+ people the
> > "quantity
> > >> of
> > >> >> >> virus" they have, and he has told the world, after receiving
the
> > >Nobel
> > >> >> >> Prize, that what he had developed wouldn´t be good to test HIV,
> and
> > >> so,
> > >> >> he
> > >> >> >> was "banished" from the medical society.
> > >> >> >> If anyone here is thinking this brazilian student is being
> > >"paranoic"
> > >> >or
> > >> >> >is
> > >> >> >> having "conspiratory thinking" do search for the words 'Aids
> > >> >dissidents'
> > >> >> >and
> > >> >> >> see their point of view. Power? That´s a good example IF they
are
> > to
> > >> be
> > >> >> >> right.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Carlos
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> _________________________________________________________
> > >> >> >> Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
> > >> >> >> Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
> > >> >> >> Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >----------
> > >> >>
> > >> >> _________________________________________________________
> > >> >> Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
> > >> >> Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
> > >> >> Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >----------
> > >>
> > >> _________________________________________________________
> > >> Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
> > >> Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
> > >> Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >----------
> >
> > _________________________________________________________
> > Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
> > Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
> > Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
> ------- End of Original Message -------
>
>