I seem to remember reading somewhere Foucault saying that he chose the title not only for his books but also for chapter headings, subheadings etc., prior to writing the books and never or very rarely changed them regardless of the direction to book took. In that sense, Alastair is right, we should just read the books.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: alastair.kemp@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Sat, 9 May 2009 05:40:00 +0000 (GMT)
> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Surveiller Et Punir translation
>
> Bearing in mind the French was in the infinitive but as Timothy has
> pointed out, the French infinitive can have imperative force, and that
> standing alone the two words in English can be infinitive or imperative,
> they should be seen as either. That we should take into account our
> ability to interpret them as either at the same time and leave it at
> that. Rather than dissect it with some need to ascertain a static
> linguistic fact?
>
> Secondly as it is Foucault, shouldn't we disregard what Foucault might
> have thought and just read it as text?
>
> best regards
>
> Alastair Kemp
>
> --- On Sat, 9/5/09, Timothy O'Leary <autrement@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> From: Timothy O'Leary <autrement@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Surveiller Et Punir translation
> To: "Mailing-list" <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Saturday, 9 May, 2009, 2:48 AM
>
> Other examples of the Imperative/Infinitive complexity are:
>
> Margeurite Duras, 'Detruire, dit-elle' - which is infinitive but is
> translated as 'Destroy, she said'.
> and, of course:
> Baudrillard, 'Oublier Foucault', also infinitive, also translated in
> imperative 'Forget Foucault'.
>
> I don't think these are mis-translations. It's just that in French, at
> least
> in titles, an infinitive is often used with, let's say, an imperative
> force..
>
> Timothy
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 1:14 AM, <ari@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> I don't think he was inciting us to defend society in 1976 either but as
>> you say interpretation is a question.
>>
>> Arianna
>>
>> The form of the imperative and the form of the bare infinitive (without
>>> 'to') are identical in English - and identical to most present tense
>> forms
>>> are the same, with the exception of third person singular. So it's a
>>> question of interpretation. Given the infinitives in the original
>> French,
>>> I
>>> think infinitives are the most parsimonious solution in the English.
>>> The
>>> imperative doesn't quite make sense here, does it? He's not enjoining
>>> us
>>> to
>>> discipline and punish...
>>> Tim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9/5/09 12:52 AM, "ari@xxxxxxxx" <ari@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I interpret the verbs as being in the imperative tense.
>>>>
>>>>> The verbs in 'Discipline and Punish' are both infinitives, not
>>>>> present
>>>>> tense
>>>>> verbs. English has two infinitive forms, with and without 'to';
>>>>> words
>>>>> like
>>>>> 'can', 'must', etc require the bare infinitive as it is called,
>>>>> otherwise
>>>>> the 'infinitive without 'to''. So from the grammatical point of view
>>>>> we
>>>>> could have had 'Survey and Punish', though of course there are
>>>>> objections
>>>>> to
>>>>> 'survey' on other grounds, as various people have already pointed
>>>>> out..
>>>>> Tim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/5/09 11:33 PM, "David Shumway" <shumway@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The English translation is DISCIPLINE AND PUNISH, not "punishment."
>>>>>> Both terms are verbs, but not infinitives as are those in the French
>>>>>> title. There is no exact equivalent to "Surveiller" in English; it
>>>>>> does
>>>>>> not mean surveillance in the usual sense of that word in English.
>>>>>> Moreover a title that used the exact cognates, "To survey and to
>>>>>> punish," would neither be clear nor catchy. Thus the choice of
>>>>>> present
>>>>>> tense verbs, for which again, "survey" does not work. Finally, one
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> argue that the English title actually better reflects the focus of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> book because "discipline" is a more important concept there than is
>>>>>> surveillance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tamir Sorek wrote:
>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does anyone can help me to solve the following puzzle: Why did
>>>>>>> Michel
>>>>>>> Foucault ask to translate the title of his book "Surveiller Et
>>>>>>> Punir"
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> "Discipline and Punishment" in English, instead of "Surveillance
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> Punishment"? Did he think that his French title was misunderstood?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you in advance for your help,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tamir Sorek
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Professor Tim McNamara
>>>>> Discipline Chair, Linguistics and Applied Linguistics
>>>>> School of Languages and Linguistics
>>>>> The University of Melbourne
>>>>> Victoria 3010
>>>>> Australia
>>>>> Tel (+ 61 3) 8344 4207
>>>>> Fax (+ 61 3) 8344 8990
>>>>> Web:
>>>>>
>> www.linguistics.unimelb.edu.au/about/staff/profiles/mcnamara/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Foucault-L mailing list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Foucault-L mailing list
>>>
>>> --
>>> Professor Tim McNamara
>>> Discipline Chair, Linguistics and Applied Linguistics
>>> School of Languages and Linguistics
>>> The University of Melbourne
>>> Victoria 3010
>>> Australia
>>> Tel (+ 61 3) 8344 4207
>>> Fax (+ 61 3) 8344 8990
>>> Web:
>>> www.linguistics.unimelb.edu.au/about/staff/profiles/mcnamara/index.html
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Foucault-L mailing list
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Foucault-L mailing list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
> -----Original Message-----
> From: alastair.kemp@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Sat, 9 May 2009 05:40:00 +0000 (GMT)
> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Surveiller Et Punir translation
>
> Bearing in mind the French was in the infinitive but as Timothy has
> pointed out, the French infinitive can have imperative force, and that
> standing alone the two words in English can be infinitive or imperative,
> they should be seen as either. That we should take into account our
> ability to interpret them as either at the same time and leave it at
> that. Rather than dissect it with some need to ascertain a static
> linguistic fact?
>
> Secondly as it is Foucault, shouldn't we disregard what Foucault might
> have thought and just read it as text?
>
> best regards
>
> Alastair Kemp
>
> --- On Sat, 9/5/09, Timothy O'Leary <autrement@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> From: Timothy O'Leary <autrement@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Surveiller Et Punir translation
> To: "Mailing-list" <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Saturday, 9 May, 2009, 2:48 AM
>
> Other examples of the Imperative/Infinitive complexity are:
>
> Margeurite Duras, 'Detruire, dit-elle' - which is infinitive but is
> translated as 'Destroy, she said'.
> and, of course:
> Baudrillard, 'Oublier Foucault', also infinitive, also translated in
> imperative 'Forget Foucault'.
>
> I don't think these are mis-translations. It's just that in French, at
> least
> in titles, an infinitive is often used with, let's say, an imperative
> force..
>
> Timothy
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 1:14 AM, <ari@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> I don't think he was inciting us to defend society in 1976 either but as
>> you say interpretation is a question.
>>
>> Arianna
>>
>> The form of the imperative and the form of the bare infinitive (without
>>> 'to') are identical in English - and identical to most present tense
>> forms
>>> are the same, with the exception of third person singular. So it's a
>>> question of interpretation. Given the infinitives in the original
>> French,
>>> I
>>> think infinitives are the most parsimonious solution in the English.
>>> The
>>> imperative doesn't quite make sense here, does it? He's not enjoining
>>> us
>>> to
>>> discipline and punish...
>>> Tim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9/5/09 12:52 AM, "ari@xxxxxxxx" <ari@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I interpret the verbs as being in the imperative tense.
>>>>
>>>>> The verbs in 'Discipline and Punish' are both infinitives, not
>>>>> present
>>>>> tense
>>>>> verbs. English has two infinitive forms, with and without 'to';
>>>>> words
>>>>> like
>>>>> 'can', 'must', etc require the bare infinitive as it is called,
>>>>> otherwise
>>>>> the 'infinitive without 'to''. So from the grammatical point of view
>>>>> we
>>>>> could have had 'Survey and Punish', though of course there are
>>>>> objections
>>>>> to
>>>>> 'survey' on other grounds, as various people have already pointed
>>>>> out..
>>>>> Tim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/5/09 11:33 PM, "David Shumway" <shumway@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The English translation is DISCIPLINE AND PUNISH, not "punishment."
>>>>>> Both terms are verbs, but not infinitives as are those in the French
>>>>>> title. There is no exact equivalent to "Surveiller" in English; it
>>>>>> does
>>>>>> not mean surveillance in the usual sense of that word in English.
>>>>>> Moreover a title that used the exact cognates, "To survey and to
>>>>>> punish," would neither be clear nor catchy. Thus the choice of
>>>>>> present
>>>>>> tense verbs, for which again, "survey" does not work. Finally, one
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> argue that the English title actually better reflects the focus of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> book because "discipline" is a more important concept there than is
>>>>>> surveillance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tamir Sorek wrote:
>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does anyone can help me to solve the following puzzle: Why did
>>>>>>> Michel
>>>>>>> Foucault ask to translate the title of his book "Surveiller Et
>>>>>>> Punir"
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> "Discipline and Punishment" in English, instead of "Surveillance
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> Punishment"? Did he think that his French title was misunderstood?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you in advance for your help,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tamir Sorek
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Professor Tim McNamara
>>>>> Discipline Chair, Linguistics and Applied Linguistics
>>>>> School of Languages and Linguistics
>>>>> The University of Melbourne
>>>>> Victoria 3010
>>>>> Australia
>>>>> Tel (+ 61 3) 8344 4207
>>>>> Fax (+ 61 3) 8344 8990
>>>>> Web:
>>>>>
>> www.linguistics.unimelb.edu.au/about/staff/profiles/mcnamara/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Foucault-L mailing list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Foucault-L mailing list
>>>
>>> --
>>> Professor Tim McNamara
>>> Discipline Chair, Linguistics and Applied Linguistics
>>> School of Languages and Linguistics
>>> The University of Melbourne
>>> Victoria 3010
>>> Australia
>>> Tel (+ 61 3) 8344 4207
>>> Fax (+ 61 3) 8344 8990
>>> Web:
>>> www.linguistics.unimelb.edu.au/about/staff/profiles/mcnamara/index.html
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Foucault-L mailing list
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Foucault-L mailing list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list