I'm curious why the new translation of "History of Madness" didn't utilize
its original title: "Madness and Unreason: a History of Madness in the
Classical Age"?Or did I get that wrong?
The Order of Things also had a slightly free translation of the title. "Le
Mots et les Choses".
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 3:38 AM, Kevin Turner <kevin.turner@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I seem to remember reading somewhere Foucault saying that he chose the
> title not only for his books but also for chapter headings, subheadings
> etc., prior to writing the books and never or very rarely changed them
> regardless of the direction to book took. In that sense, Alastair is right,
> we should just read the books.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: alastair.kemp@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > Sent: Sat, 9 May 2009 05:40:00 +0000 (GMT)
> > To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Surveiller Et Punir translation
> >
> > Bearing in mind the French was in the infinitive but as Timothy has
> > pointed out, the French infinitive can have imperative force, and that
> > standing alone the two words in English can be infinitive or imperative,
> > they should be seen as either. That we should take into account our
> > ability to interpret them as either at the same time and leave it at
> > that. Rather than dissect it with some need to ascertain a static
> > linguistic fact?
> >
> > Secondly as it is Foucault, shouldn't we disregard what Foucault might
> > have thought and just read it as text?
> >
> > best regards
> >
> > Alastair Kemp
> >
> > --- On Sat, 9/5/09, Timothy O'Leary <autrement@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > From: Timothy O'Leary <autrement@xxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Surveiller Et Punir translation
> > To: "Mailing-list" <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: Saturday, 9 May, 2009, 2:48 AM
> >
> > Other examples of the Imperative/Infinitive complexity are:
> >
> > Margeurite Duras, 'Detruire, dit-elle' - which is infinitive but is
> > translated as 'Destroy, she said'.
> > and, of course:
> > Baudrillard, 'Oublier Foucault', also infinitive, also translated in
> > imperative 'Forget Foucault'.
> >
> > I don't think these are mis-translations. It's just that in French, at
> > least
> > in titles, an infinitive is often used with, let's say, an imperative
> > force..
> >
> > Timothy
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 1:14 AM, <ari@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> >> I don't think he was inciting us to defend society in 1976 either but as
> >> you say interpretation is a question.
> >>
> >> Arianna
> >>
> >> The form of the imperative and the form of the bare infinitive (without
> >>> 'to') are identical in English - and identical to most present tense
> >> forms
> >>> are the same, with the exception of third person singular. So
> it's a
> >>> question of interpretation. Given the infinitives in the original
> >> French,
> >>> I
> >>> think infinitives are the most parsimonious solution in the English.
> >>> The
> >>> imperative doesn't quite make sense here, does it? He's not enjoining
> >>> us
> >>> to
> >>> discipline and punish...
> >>> Tim
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 9/5/09 12:52 AM, "ari@xxxxxxxx" <ari@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I interpret the verbs as being in the imperative tense.
> >>>>
> >>>>> The verbs in 'Discipline and Punish' are both infinitives, not
> >>>>> present
> >>>>> tense
> >>>>> verbs. English has two infinitive forms, with and without 'to';
> >>>>> words
> >>>>> like
> >>>>> 'can', 'must', etc require the bare infinitive as it is called,
> >>>>> otherwise
> >>>>> the 'infinitive without 'to''. So from the grammatical point of
> view
> >>>>> we
> >>>>> could have had 'Survey and Punish', though of course there are
> >>>>> objections
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> 'survey' on other grounds, as various people have already pointed
> >>>>> out..
> >>>>> Tim
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 8/5/09 11:33 PM, "David Shumway" <shumway@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> The English translation is DISCIPLINE AND PUNISH, not "punishment."
> >>>>>> Both terms are verbs, but not infinitives as are those in the French
> >>>>>> title. There is no exact equivalent to "Surveiller" in
> English; it
> >>>>>> does
> >>>>>> not mean surveillance in the usual sense of that word in English.
> >>>>>> Moreover a title that used the exact cognates, "To survey and to
> >>>>>> punish," would neither be clear nor catchy. Thus the choice of
> >>>>>> present
> >>>>>> tense verbs, for which again, "survey" does not work. Finally, one
> >>>>>> could
> >>>>>> argue that the English title actually better reflects the focus of
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> book because "discipline" is a more important concept there than is
> >>>>>> surveillance.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> David
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Tamir Sorek wrote:
> >>>>>>> Hello,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Does anyone can help me to solve the following puzzle: Why did
> >>>>>>> Michel
> >>>>>>> Foucault ask to translate the title of his book "Surveiller Et
> >>>>>>> Punir"
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> "Discipline and Punishment" in English, instead of "Surveillance
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> Punishment"? Did he think that his French title was misunderstood?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thank you in advance for your help,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tamir Sorek
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Professor Tim McNamara
> >>>>> Discipline Chair, Linguistics and Applied Linguistics
> >>>>> School of Languages and Linguistics
> >>>>> The University of Melbourne
> >>>>> Victoria 3010
> >>>>> Australia
> >>>>> Tel (+ 61 3) 8344 4207
> >>>>> Fax (+ 61 3) 8344 8990
> >>>>> Web:
> >>>>>
> >> www.linguistics.unimelb.edu.au/about/staff/profiles/mcnamara/index.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Foucault-L mailing list
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Foucault-L mailing list
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Professor Tim McNamara
> >>> Discipline Chair, Linguistics and Applied Linguistics
> >>> School of Languages and Linguistics
> >>> The University of Melbourne
> >>> Victoria 3010
> >>> Australia
> >>> Tel (+ 61 3) 8344 4207
> >>> Fax (+ 61 3) 8344 8990
> >>> Web:
> >>>
> www.linguistics.unimelb.edu.au/about/staff/profiles/mcnamara/index.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Foucault-L mailing list
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Foucault-L mailing list
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Foucault-L mailing list
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Foucault-L mailing list
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
>
--
Chetan Vemuri
West Des Moines, IA
aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
(319)-512-9318
"You say you want a Revolution! Well you know, we all want to change the
world"
its original title: "Madness and Unreason: a History of Madness in the
Classical Age"?Or did I get that wrong?
The Order of Things also had a slightly free translation of the title. "Le
Mots et les Choses".
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 3:38 AM, Kevin Turner <kevin.turner@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I seem to remember reading somewhere Foucault saying that he chose the
> title not only for his books but also for chapter headings, subheadings
> etc., prior to writing the books and never or very rarely changed them
> regardless of the direction to book took. In that sense, Alastair is right,
> we should just read the books.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: alastair.kemp@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > Sent: Sat, 9 May 2009 05:40:00 +0000 (GMT)
> > To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Surveiller Et Punir translation
> >
> > Bearing in mind the French was in the infinitive but as Timothy has
> > pointed out, the French infinitive can have imperative force, and that
> > standing alone the two words in English can be infinitive or imperative,
> > they should be seen as either. That we should take into account our
> > ability to interpret them as either at the same time and leave it at
> > that. Rather than dissect it with some need to ascertain a static
> > linguistic fact?
> >
> > Secondly as it is Foucault, shouldn't we disregard what Foucault might
> > have thought and just read it as text?
> >
> > best regards
> >
> > Alastair Kemp
> >
> > --- On Sat, 9/5/09, Timothy O'Leary <autrement@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > From: Timothy O'Leary <autrement@xxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Surveiller Et Punir translation
> > To: "Mailing-list" <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: Saturday, 9 May, 2009, 2:48 AM
> >
> > Other examples of the Imperative/Infinitive complexity are:
> >
> > Margeurite Duras, 'Detruire, dit-elle' - which is infinitive but is
> > translated as 'Destroy, she said'.
> > and, of course:
> > Baudrillard, 'Oublier Foucault', also infinitive, also translated in
> > imperative 'Forget Foucault'.
> >
> > I don't think these are mis-translations. It's just that in French, at
> > least
> > in titles, an infinitive is often used with, let's say, an imperative
> > force..
> >
> > Timothy
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 1:14 AM, <ari@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> >> I don't think he was inciting us to defend society in 1976 either but as
> >> you say interpretation is a question.
> >>
> >> Arianna
> >>
> >> The form of the imperative and the form of the bare infinitive (without
> >>> 'to') are identical in English - and identical to most present tense
> >> forms
> >>> are the same, with the exception of third person singular. So
> it's a
> >>> question of interpretation. Given the infinitives in the original
> >> French,
> >>> I
> >>> think infinitives are the most parsimonious solution in the English.
> >>> The
> >>> imperative doesn't quite make sense here, does it? He's not enjoining
> >>> us
> >>> to
> >>> discipline and punish...
> >>> Tim
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 9/5/09 12:52 AM, "ari@xxxxxxxx" <ari@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I interpret the verbs as being in the imperative tense.
> >>>>
> >>>>> The verbs in 'Discipline and Punish' are both infinitives, not
> >>>>> present
> >>>>> tense
> >>>>> verbs. English has two infinitive forms, with and without 'to';
> >>>>> words
> >>>>> like
> >>>>> 'can', 'must', etc require the bare infinitive as it is called,
> >>>>> otherwise
> >>>>> the 'infinitive without 'to''. So from the grammatical point of
> view
> >>>>> we
> >>>>> could have had 'Survey and Punish', though of course there are
> >>>>> objections
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> 'survey' on other grounds, as various people have already pointed
> >>>>> out..
> >>>>> Tim
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 8/5/09 11:33 PM, "David Shumway" <shumway@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> The English translation is DISCIPLINE AND PUNISH, not "punishment."
> >>>>>> Both terms are verbs, but not infinitives as are those in the French
> >>>>>> title. There is no exact equivalent to "Surveiller" in
> English; it
> >>>>>> does
> >>>>>> not mean surveillance in the usual sense of that word in English.
> >>>>>> Moreover a title that used the exact cognates, "To survey and to
> >>>>>> punish," would neither be clear nor catchy. Thus the choice of
> >>>>>> present
> >>>>>> tense verbs, for which again, "survey" does not work. Finally, one
> >>>>>> could
> >>>>>> argue that the English title actually better reflects the focus of
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> book because "discipline" is a more important concept there than is
> >>>>>> surveillance.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> David
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Tamir Sorek wrote:
> >>>>>>> Hello,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Does anyone can help me to solve the following puzzle: Why did
> >>>>>>> Michel
> >>>>>>> Foucault ask to translate the title of his book "Surveiller Et
> >>>>>>> Punir"
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> "Discipline and Punishment" in English, instead of "Surveillance
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> Punishment"? Did he think that his French title was misunderstood?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thank you in advance for your help,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tamir Sorek
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Professor Tim McNamara
> >>>>> Discipline Chair, Linguistics and Applied Linguistics
> >>>>> School of Languages and Linguistics
> >>>>> The University of Melbourne
> >>>>> Victoria 3010
> >>>>> Australia
> >>>>> Tel (+ 61 3) 8344 4207
> >>>>> Fax (+ 61 3) 8344 8990
> >>>>> Web:
> >>>>>
> >> www.linguistics.unimelb.edu.au/about/staff/profiles/mcnamara/index.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Foucault-L mailing list
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Foucault-L mailing list
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Professor Tim McNamara
> >>> Discipline Chair, Linguistics and Applied Linguistics
> >>> School of Languages and Linguistics
> >>> The University of Melbourne
> >>> Victoria 3010
> >>> Australia
> >>> Tel (+ 61 3) 8344 4207
> >>> Fax (+ 61 3) 8344 8990
> >>> Web:
> >>>
> www.linguistics.unimelb.edu.au/about/staff/profiles/mcnamara/index.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Foucault-L mailing list
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Foucault-L mailing list
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Foucault-L mailing list
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Foucault-L mailing list
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
>
--
Chetan Vemuri
West Des Moines, IA
aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
(319)-512-9318
"You say you want a Revolution! Well you know, we all want to change the
world"