Hi Anthony,
I´m relieved to see what you mean. My preocupation with the HIV/AIDS issue
is due to have seen many people being terrified by having an exam, by the
idea of having a disease that will kill them, and, in the other hand,
knowing those who are told they are HIV+, but are healthy. I also lost a
friend, in the times of AZT, who clearly died out of fear. The more scared
he got, the sicker, and, afterwords, people said that he who takes AZT
doesn´t need anything else to die of, it does kill you. All that made me
look for more information, and finding the dissidents made me question "what
if", what if HIV does not cause any syndrome?
Also, the reactions of some of the medical doctors I worked with, their
reaction over just my questioning whether someone who is not sick at all
should take any medication, and whether there wouldn´t be any other factors
that influence ones immunity, not only the T4 cells (and, in fact, immunity
is a very very complex system), they just went mad at me. The simple
questioning made them get very angry and treat me as if I was crasy, or as I
was some kind of cruel perverse person.
Their power over life and death could not be question. That made me get
closer to the subject, and I only brought it here after someone having
mentioned it.
I also do not like marxist thinking, never did.
Carlos
Em 15 Dec 2003, foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx escreveu:
>Carlos, I merely posed the question rather than offered the answer! I
>suppose I am tempted to think at times that Marxism is the opium of the
>Marxists. I am not hostile to Marxist descriptions - it is when it seeks to
>prescribe that we run into all matter of difficulties. It leads me to think
>that it is just people with an eye for opportunity trying to create what
>they feel is a power vacuum and then move to persuade or coerce the rest of
>us into believing that the vacuum can only be filled by 'the party.' The
>best way to problematise the matter in my view is to move to the level of
>micro power and look at how each of the dominant institutions you referred
>to is constituted in terms of their own internal dynamics and discourses.
>This avoids the Marxist problem of finding some hidden societal essence
>which will come through once the veil of mystification has been pulled away
>leaving us to gaze on how capital in fact constitutes each of the
>institutions. Then we avoid the problem of thinking that the dissidents you
>refer to are brought together as a result of their class consciousness -
>their dissent, their oppositionalism is to be situated in the peculiar
>discourse of their particular institution. Consequently, they may never
find
>common purpose. The Marxists in turn will then ask if this is not just a
>reversion to pluralist thinking. Although in both pluralism and Marxism the
>question of power is deal with as a resource - power is a battery rather
>than the electricity that comes through the battery. Some way to go yet in
>finding a problematisation that is stronger and more persuasive than the
>counter problematization it invariably throws up
>
>Anthony
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Carlinhos Puig"
>To:
>Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 2:59 PM
>Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
>
>> Anthony,
>>
>> Thank you, here you got me!
>> I do not like the Marxist analysis. But, as a beginner, I see myself
>caught
>> in that discourse. Could you help me out? How can we problematize this
>issue
>> in a better way?
>> We have a "truth" considered by the majority as so, which is that HIV
>causes
>> AIDS. We have many scientists that question that truth. We have cases of
>> people, individuals, and we have a context of media, official scientific
>> press, and a culture of fear over the syndrome. How could we problematize
>> that, in dispite the fact that we don´t know whether those scientists so
>> called dissidents are, in fact, aproaching the issue in a way that ...
>that
>> what? I don´t even know how to put it.
>> I don´t know whether it is whorthwhile, but this could be a good
exercise.
>>
>> Thanks again,
>>
>> Carlos
>>
>> Em 14 Dec 2003, foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx escreveu:
>>
>> >Carlos, this seems very true but how would it differ from a Marxist
>> analysis
>> >of the same subject? The marginalisation, demonisation, role of the
>> >pharmecutical companies all seems to be the way Marxists would describe
>it
>> >
>> >Anthony
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Carlinhos Puig"
>> >To:
>> >Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 12:16 PM
>> >Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
>> >
>> >> Anthony,
>> >>
>> >> Well, yes, I must agree with you, but that similarity does not change
>the
>> >> problem of HIV/AIDS. Dissidents are people who are doctors,
phisitians,
>> >> researchers, people from all around the world, and they do describe
the
>> >> problem in a very reasonable way. Their view is that aids could be
>caused
>> >by
>> >> the way of life of a person - using drugs, starvation, compulsive sex,
>> and
>> >> they do include cigarette smoking as an activity that causes
>> >> immunodeficiency.
>> >> What strikes me in that controversy is the fact that very reliable
>> >> scientists cease to have a voice in the official medical press, are
>> >> ridiculized in the media, after just questioning a more accurate
>research
>> >> before stating something as a truth.
>> >> Personally, I am acquainted with quite a number of people who are HIV
>+,
>> >but
>> >> do try to live a healthy life (some of these people just refuse to
take
>> >any
>> >> medication at all) and none of them is getting sick, in a period of
>over
>> >ten
>> >> years. Actually, they seem to be healthier than me, and I do smoke
>> tobaco,
>> >> but I´m not labeled HIV+.
>> >> I cannot be sure about what is really happening, but a fact is that
>those
>> >> scientists do have a good point on the issue, but the world deals with
>> >aids
>> >> in a very sensationalist way. And no one can deny that the
>farmaceutical
>> >> industry does have quite a big lot of profit out of selling medication
>to
>> >> that syndrome.
>> >>
>> >> Carlos
>> >>
>> >> Em 13 Dec 2003, foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx escreveu:
>> >>
>> >> >Carlos, while there is merit to your point do you not think that a
>> >> >similarity can be drawn with the tobacco industry which disputes the
>> link
>> >> >between cigarettes and cancer?
>> >> >
>> >> >Anthony
>> >> >----- Original Message -----
>> >> >From: "Carlinhos Puig"
>> >> >To:
>> >> >Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 10:55 PM
>> >> >Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
>> >> >
>> >> >> Hi,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I really believe Foucault would be another personallity signing the
>> >list
>> >> >of
>> >> >> the "Dissidents of Aids", the group of scientists who question the
>> fact
>> >> >that
>> >> >> there is no scientific proof that it is the HIV virus that causes
>the
>> >> >> sindrome. I think Foucault would line up with South Africa´s
>> president,
>> >> >> standing up for having food for people who die of symptoms that are
>> >> >> considered aids, in Africa, but who are starving, and have not been
>> >> tested
>> >> >> (an HIV test would cost an amount that is unafordable to people who
>> are
>> >> >> starving, starvation have very similar symptoms to those attributed
>to
>> >> >> AIDS).
>> >> >> I think Foucault would question the farmaceutical industry, whith
>> >bilions
>> >> >a
>> >> >> year involved in the discussion. He would argue and stand for a
>Nobel
>> >> >Prize
>> >> >> scientist who has no voice any longer in the official medical
press,
>> >the
>> >> >> same one who developed the exam that tells HIV+ people the
"quantity
>> of
>> >> >> virus" they have, and he has told the world, after receiving the
>Nobel
>> >> >> Prize, that what he had developed wouldn´t be good to test HIV, and
>> so,
>> >> he
>> >> >> was "banished" from the medical society.
>> >> >> If anyone here is thinking this brazilian student is being
>"paranoic"
>> >or
>> >> >is
>> >> >> having "conspiratory thinking" do search for the words 'Aids
>> >dissidents'
>> >> >and
>> >> >> see their point of view. Power? That´s a good example IF they are
to
>> be
>> >> >> right.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Carlos
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _________________________________________________________
>> >> >> Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
>> >> >> Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
>> >> >> Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >----------
>> >>
>> >> _________________________________________________________
>> >> Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
>> >> Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
>> >> Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >----------
>>
>> _________________________________________________________
>> Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
>> Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
>> Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
>>
>>
>
>----------
_________________________________________________________
Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
I´m relieved to see what you mean. My preocupation with the HIV/AIDS issue
is due to have seen many people being terrified by having an exam, by the
idea of having a disease that will kill them, and, in the other hand,
knowing those who are told they are HIV+, but are healthy. I also lost a
friend, in the times of AZT, who clearly died out of fear. The more scared
he got, the sicker, and, afterwords, people said that he who takes AZT
doesn´t need anything else to die of, it does kill you. All that made me
look for more information, and finding the dissidents made me question "what
if", what if HIV does not cause any syndrome?
Also, the reactions of some of the medical doctors I worked with, their
reaction over just my questioning whether someone who is not sick at all
should take any medication, and whether there wouldn´t be any other factors
that influence ones immunity, not only the T4 cells (and, in fact, immunity
is a very very complex system), they just went mad at me. The simple
questioning made them get very angry and treat me as if I was crasy, or as I
was some kind of cruel perverse person.
Their power over life and death could not be question. That made me get
closer to the subject, and I only brought it here after someone having
mentioned it.
I also do not like marxist thinking, never did.
Carlos
Em 15 Dec 2003, foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx escreveu:
>Carlos, I merely posed the question rather than offered the answer! I
>suppose I am tempted to think at times that Marxism is the opium of the
>Marxists. I am not hostile to Marxist descriptions - it is when it seeks to
>prescribe that we run into all matter of difficulties. It leads me to think
>that it is just people with an eye for opportunity trying to create what
>they feel is a power vacuum and then move to persuade or coerce the rest of
>us into believing that the vacuum can only be filled by 'the party.' The
>best way to problematise the matter in my view is to move to the level of
>micro power and look at how each of the dominant institutions you referred
>to is constituted in terms of their own internal dynamics and discourses.
>This avoids the Marxist problem of finding some hidden societal essence
>which will come through once the veil of mystification has been pulled away
>leaving us to gaze on how capital in fact constitutes each of the
>institutions. Then we avoid the problem of thinking that the dissidents you
>refer to are brought together as a result of their class consciousness -
>their dissent, their oppositionalism is to be situated in the peculiar
>discourse of their particular institution. Consequently, they may never
find
>common purpose. The Marxists in turn will then ask if this is not just a
>reversion to pluralist thinking. Although in both pluralism and Marxism the
>question of power is deal with as a resource - power is a battery rather
>than the electricity that comes through the battery. Some way to go yet in
>finding a problematisation that is stronger and more persuasive than the
>counter problematization it invariably throws up
>
>Anthony
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Carlinhos Puig"
>To:
>Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 2:59 PM
>Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
>
>> Anthony,
>>
>> Thank you, here you got me!
>> I do not like the Marxist analysis. But, as a beginner, I see myself
>caught
>> in that discourse. Could you help me out? How can we problematize this
>issue
>> in a better way?
>> We have a "truth" considered by the majority as so, which is that HIV
>causes
>> AIDS. We have many scientists that question that truth. We have cases of
>> people, individuals, and we have a context of media, official scientific
>> press, and a culture of fear over the syndrome. How could we problematize
>> that, in dispite the fact that we don´t know whether those scientists so
>> called dissidents are, in fact, aproaching the issue in a way that ...
>that
>> what? I don´t even know how to put it.
>> I don´t know whether it is whorthwhile, but this could be a good
exercise.
>>
>> Thanks again,
>>
>> Carlos
>>
>> Em 14 Dec 2003, foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx escreveu:
>>
>> >Carlos, this seems very true but how would it differ from a Marxist
>> analysis
>> >of the same subject? The marginalisation, demonisation, role of the
>> >pharmecutical companies all seems to be the way Marxists would describe
>it
>> >
>> >Anthony
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Carlinhos Puig"
>> >To:
>> >Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 12:16 PM
>> >Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
>> >
>> >> Anthony,
>> >>
>> >> Well, yes, I must agree with you, but that similarity does not change
>the
>> >> problem of HIV/AIDS. Dissidents are people who are doctors,
phisitians,
>> >> researchers, people from all around the world, and they do describe
the
>> >> problem in a very reasonable way. Their view is that aids could be
>caused
>> >by
>> >> the way of life of a person - using drugs, starvation, compulsive sex,
>> and
>> >> they do include cigarette smoking as an activity that causes
>> >> immunodeficiency.
>> >> What strikes me in that controversy is the fact that very reliable
>> >> scientists cease to have a voice in the official medical press, are
>> >> ridiculized in the media, after just questioning a more accurate
>research
>> >> before stating something as a truth.
>> >> Personally, I am acquainted with quite a number of people who are HIV
>+,
>> >but
>> >> do try to live a healthy life (some of these people just refuse to
take
>> >any
>> >> medication at all) and none of them is getting sick, in a period of
>over
>> >ten
>> >> years. Actually, they seem to be healthier than me, and I do smoke
>> tobaco,
>> >> but I´m not labeled HIV+.
>> >> I cannot be sure about what is really happening, but a fact is that
>those
>> >> scientists do have a good point on the issue, but the world deals with
>> >aids
>> >> in a very sensationalist way. And no one can deny that the
>farmaceutical
>> >> industry does have quite a big lot of profit out of selling medication
>to
>> >> that syndrome.
>> >>
>> >> Carlos
>> >>
>> >> Em 13 Dec 2003, foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx escreveu:
>> >>
>> >> >Carlos, while there is merit to your point do you not think that a
>> >> >similarity can be drawn with the tobacco industry which disputes the
>> link
>> >> >between cigarettes and cancer?
>> >> >
>> >> >Anthony
>> >> >----- Original Message -----
>> >> >From: "Carlinhos Puig"
>> >> >To:
>> >> >Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 10:55 PM
>> >> >Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
>> >> >
>> >> >> Hi,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I really believe Foucault would be another personallity signing the
>> >list
>> >> >of
>> >> >> the "Dissidents of Aids", the group of scientists who question the
>> fact
>> >> >that
>> >> >> there is no scientific proof that it is the HIV virus that causes
>the
>> >> >> sindrome. I think Foucault would line up with South Africa´s
>> president,
>> >> >> standing up for having food for people who die of symptoms that are
>> >> >> considered aids, in Africa, but who are starving, and have not been
>> >> tested
>> >> >> (an HIV test would cost an amount that is unafordable to people who
>> are
>> >> >> starving, starvation have very similar symptoms to those attributed
>to
>> >> >> AIDS).
>> >> >> I think Foucault would question the farmaceutical industry, whith
>> >bilions
>> >> >a
>> >> >> year involved in the discussion. He would argue and stand for a
>Nobel
>> >> >Prize
>> >> >> scientist who has no voice any longer in the official medical
press,
>> >the
>> >> >> same one who developed the exam that tells HIV+ people the
"quantity
>> of
>> >> >> virus" they have, and he has told the world, after receiving the
>Nobel
>> >> >> Prize, that what he had developed wouldn´t be good to test HIV, and
>> so,
>> >> he
>> >> >> was "banished" from the medical society.
>> >> >> If anyone here is thinking this brazilian student is being
>"paranoic"
>> >or
>> >> >is
>> >> >> having "conspiratory thinking" do search for the words 'Aids
>> >dissidents'
>> >> >and
>> >> >> see their point of view. Power? That´s a good example IF they are
to
>> be
>> >> >> right.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Carlos
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _________________________________________________________
>> >> >> Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
>> >> >> Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
>> >> >> Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >----------
>> >>
>> >> _________________________________________________________
>> >> Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
>> >> Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
>> >> Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >----------
>>
>> _________________________________________________________
>> Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
>> Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
>> Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
>>
>>
>
>----------
_________________________________________________________
Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/