Hi,
I find it facinating the way Mr. Mbeki has decided over the issue. He called
four or five scientits of each side, and asked them to debate the question
for some time. After that, he decided that he wouldn´t pay for medication,
on the grounds that, in Africa, nobody was testing HIV, but diagnosing by
the symptoms only. And as it can be very well confirmed, those symptoms are
the same when people are starving. He said he would first try to combat
starvation, and then, when there is moneys, look at the problem of HIV.
To me, that´s good enough to problematize AIDS, the fact that there is no
testing for HIV going on in most of Africa, and it is still being anounced
that Africa has the larger number of cases. Cases of what, that is the
question, of HIV causing AIDS or of AIDS as a byproduct of starvation (not
caused by any virus)?
There is plenty of information about that, which I don´t know by heart, but
anyone may see it in the sites of the dissidents from all over the world.
Carlos
Em 16 Dec 2003, foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx escreveu:
>Hi Carlinhos,
>
>From what I have read from South African Marxists, they tend to accept the
>scientists argument that HIV causes AIDS, and are critical of Thabo Mbeki's
>reluctance to accept this, arguing that it is a smokescreen to disguise the
>South African state's reluctance to invest in the medication neccessary to
>combat AIDS in South Africa.
>
>They argue that if Thabo were really concerned about poverty, and the poor,
>he would not have launched the major privatisations that have been carried
>out by the South African government.
>
>The failure of the South African government, at least for a period, to take
>the question of AIDS seriously actually contributed to the suffering of the
>South African poor.
>
>Those scientists however who refuse to allow their work to be questioned
>need
>to look back at the philosophy of 'scientific method' in which it is
>legitimate to question all authorities, and that good critical questioning
>actually tests andstrengthens well-grounded hypotheses. The real power
>relations within the scientific and biomedical discourse clearly do not
>match
>exactly this ideal of the scientific method.
>
>"We speak and the word goes beyond us to consequences and ends which we had
>not conceived of" Gadamer
>
>---------- Original Message -----------
>From: Carlinhos Puig
>To: foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Sent: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:03:55 -0200
>Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
>
>> Hi Anthony,
>>
>> I´m relieved to see what you mean. My preocupation with the HIV/AIDS
>> issue is due to have seen many people being terrified by having an
>> exam, by the idea of having a disease that will kill them, and, in
>> the other hand, knowing those who are told they are HIV+, but are
>> healthy. I also lost a friend, in the times of AZT, who clearly died
>> out of fear. The more scared he got, the sicker, and, afterwords,
>> people said that he who takes AZT doesn´t need anything else to die
>> of, it does kill you. All that made me look for more information,
>> and finding the dissidents made me question "what if", what if HIV
>> does not cause any syndrome? Also, the reactions of some of the
>> medical doctors I worked with, their reaction over just my
>> questioning whether someone who is not sick at all should take any
>> medication, and whether there wouldn´t be any other factors that
>> influence ones immunity, not only the T4 cells (and, in fact,
>> immunity is a very very complex system), they just went mad at me.
>> The simple questioning made them get very angry and treat me as if I
>> was crasy, or as I was some kind of cruel perverse person. Their
>> power over life and death could not be question. That made me get
>> closer to the subject, and I only brought it here after someone
>> having mentioned it. I also do not like marxist thinking, never did.
>>
>> Carlos
>>
>> Em 15 Dec 2003, foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx escreveu:
>>
>> >Carlos, I merely posed the question rather than offered the answer! I
>> >suppose I am tempted to think at times that Marxism is the opium of the
>> >Marxists. I am not hostile to Marxist descriptions - it is when it seeks
>to
>> >prescribe that we run into all matter of difficulties. It leads me to
>think
>> >that it is just people with an eye for opportunity trying to create what
>> >they feel is a power vacuum and then move to persuade or coerce the rest
>of
>> >us into believing that the vacuum can only be filled by 'the party.' The
>> >best way to problematise the matter in my view is to move to the level
of
>> >micro power and look at how each of the dominant institutions you
>referred
>> >to is constituted in terms of their own internal dynamics and
discourses.
>> >This avoids the Marxist problem of finding some hidden societal essence
>> >which will come through once the veil of mystification has been pulled
>away
>> >leaving us to gaze on how capital in fact constitutes each of the
>> >institutions. Then we avoid the problem of thinking that the dissidents
>you
>> >refer to are brought together as a result of their class consciousness -
>> >their dissent, their oppositionalism is to be situated in the peculiar
>> >discourse of their particular institution. Consequently, they may never
>> find
>> >common purpose. The Marxists in turn will then ask if this is not just a
>> >reversion to pluralist thinking. Although in both pluralism and Marxism
>the
>> >question of power is deal with as a resource - power is a battery rather
>> >than the electricity that comes through the battery. Some way to go yet
>in
>> >finding a problematisation that is stronger and more persuasive than the
>> >counter problematization it invariably throws up
>> >
>> >Anthony
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Carlinhos Puig"
>> >To:
>> >Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 2:59 PM
>> >Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
>> >
>> >> Anthony,
>> >>
>> >> Thank you, here you got me!
>> >> I do not like the Marxist analysis. But, as a beginner, I see myself
>> >caught
>> >> in that discourse. Could you help me out? How can we problematize this
>> >issue
>> >> in a better way?
>> >> We have a "truth" considered by the majority as so, which is that HIV
>> >causes
>> >> AIDS. We have many scientists that question that truth. We have cases
>of
>> >> people, individuals, and we have a context of media, official
>scientific
>> >> press, and a culture of fear over the syndrome. How could we
>problematize
>> >> that, in dispite the fact that we don´t know whether those scientists
>so
>> >> called dissidents are, in fact, aproaching the issue in a way that ...
>> >that
>> >> what? I don´t even know how to put it.
>> >> I don´t know whether it is whorthwhile, but this could be a good
>> exercise.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks again,
>> >>
>> >> Carlos
>> >>
>> >> Em 14 Dec 2003, foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx escreveu:
>> >>
>> >> >Carlos, this seems very true but how would it differ from a Marxist
>> >> analysis
>> >> >of the same subject? The marginalisation, demonisation, role of the
>> >> >pharmecutical companies all seems to be the way Marxists would
>describe
>> >it
>> >> >
>> >> >Anthony
>> >> >----- Original Message -----
>> >> >From: "Carlinhos Puig"
>> >> >To:
>> >> >Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 12:16 PM
>> >> >Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
>> >> >
>> >> >> Anthony,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Well, yes, I must agree with you, but that similarity does not
>change
>> >the
>> >> >> problem of HIV/AIDS. Dissidents are people who are doctors,
>> phisitians,
>> >> >> researchers, people from all around the world, and they do describe
>> the
>> >> >> problem in a very reasonable way. Their view is that aids could be
>> >caused
>> >> >by
>> >> >> the way of life of a person - using drugs, starvation, compulsive
>sex,
>> >> and
>> >> >> they do include cigarette smoking as an activity that causes
>> >> >> immunodeficiency.
>> >> >> What strikes me in that controversy is the fact that very reliable
>> >> >> scientists cease to have a voice in the official medical press, are
>> >> >> ridiculized in the media, after just questioning a more accurate
>> >research
>> >> >> before stating something as a truth.
>> >> >> Personally, I am acquainted with quite a number of people who are
>HIV
>> >+,
>> >> >but
>> >> >> do try to live a healthy life (some of these people just refuse to
>> take
>> >> >any
>> >> >> medication at all) and none of them is getting sick, in a period of
>> >over
>> >> >ten
>> >> >> years. Actually, they seem to be healthier than me, and I do smoke
>> >> tobaco,
>> >> >> but I´m not labeled HIV+.
>> >> >> I cannot be sure about what is really happening, but a fact is that
>> >those
>> >> >> scientists do have a good point on the issue, but the world deals
>with
>> >> >aids
>> >> >> in a very sensationalist way. And no one can deny that the
>> >farmaceutical
>> >> >> industry does have quite a big lot of profit out of selling
>medication
>> >to
>> >> >> that syndrome.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Carlos
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Em 13 Dec 2003, foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx escreveu:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >Carlos, while there is merit to your point do you not think that a
>> >> >> >similarity can be drawn with the tobacco industry which disputes
>the
>> >> link
>> >> >> >between cigarettes and cancer?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Anthony
>> >> >> >----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >From: "Carlinhos Puig"
>> >> >> >To:
>> >> >> >Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 10:55 PM
>> >> >> >Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Hi,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I really believe Foucault would be another personallity signing
>the
>> >> >list
>> >> >> >of
>> >> >> >> the "Dissidents of Aids", the group of scientists who question
>the
>> >> fact
>> >> >> >that
>> >> >> >> there is no scientific proof that it is the HIV virus that
causes
>> >the
>> >> >> >> sindrome. I think Foucault would line up with South Africa´s
>> >> president,
>> >> >> >> standing up for having food for people who die of symptoms that
>are
>> >> >> >> considered aids, in Africa, but who are starving, and have not
>been
>> >> >> tested
>> >> >> >> (an HIV test would cost an amount that is unafordable to people
>who
>> >> are
>> >> >> >> starving, starvation have very similar symptoms to those
>attributed
>> >to
>> >> >> >> AIDS).
>> >> >> >> I think Foucault would question the farmaceutical industry,
whith
>> >> >bilions
>> >> >> >a
>> >> >> >> year involved in the discussion. He would argue and stand for a
>> >Nobel
>> >> >> >Prize
>> >> >> >> scientist who has no voice any longer in the official medical
>> press,
>> >> >the
>> >> >> >> same one who developed the exam that tells HIV+ people the
>> "quantity
>> >> of
>> >> >> >> virus" they have, and he has told the world, after receiving the
>> >Nobel
>> >> >> >> Prize, that what he had developed wouldn´t be good to test HIV,
>and
>> >> so,
>> >> >> he
>> >> >> >> was "banished" from the medical society.
>> >> >> >> If anyone here is thinking this brazilian student is being
>> >"paranoic"
>> >> >or
>> >> >> >is
>> >> >> >> having "conspiratory thinking" do search for the words 'Aids
>> >> >dissidents'
>> >> >> >and
>> >> >> >> see their point of view. Power? That´s a good example IF they
are
>> to
>> >> be
>> >> >> >> right.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Carlos
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________
>> >> >> >> Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
>> >> >> >> Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
>> >> >> >> Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >----------
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _________________________________________________________
>> >> >> Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
>> >> >> Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
>> >> >> Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >----------
>> >>
>> >> _________________________________________________________
>> >> Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
>> >> Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
>> >> Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >----------
>>
>> _________________________________________________________
>> Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
>> Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
>> Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
>------- End of Original Message -------
>
>----------
_________________________________________________________
Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
I find it facinating the way Mr. Mbeki has decided over the issue. He called
four or five scientits of each side, and asked them to debate the question
for some time. After that, he decided that he wouldn´t pay for medication,
on the grounds that, in Africa, nobody was testing HIV, but diagnosing by
the symptoms only. And as it can be very well confirmed, those symptoms are
the same when people are starving. He said he would first try to combat
starvation, and then, when there is moneys, look at the problem of HIV.
To me, that´s good enough to problematize AIDS, the fact that there is no
testing for HIV going on in most of Africa, and it is still being anounced
that Africa has the larger number of cases. Cases of what, that is the
question, of HIV causing AIDS or of AIDS as a byproduct of starvation (not
caused by any virus)?
There is plenty of information about that, which I don´t know by heart, but
anyone may see it in the sites of the dissidents from all over the world.
Carlos
Em 16 Dec 2003, foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx escreveu:
>Hi Carlinhos,
>
>From what I have read from South African Marxists, they tend to accept the
>scientists argument that HIV causes AIDS, and are critical of Thabo Mbeki's
>reluctance to accept this, arguing that it is a smokescreen to disguise the
>South African state's reluctance to invest in the medication neccessary to
>combat AIDS in South Africa.
>
>They argue that if Thabo were really concerned about poverty, and the poor,
>he would not have launched the major privatisations that have been carried
>out by the South African government.
>
>The failure of the South African government, at least for a period, to take
>the question of AIDS seriously actually contributed to the suffering of the
>South African poor.
>
>Those scientists however who refuse to allow their work to be questioned
>need
>to look back at the philosophy of 'scientific method' in which it is
>legitimate to question all authorities, and that good critical questioning
>actually tests andstrengthens well-grounded hypotheses. The real power
>relations within the scientific and biomedical discourse clearly do not
>match
>exactly this ideal of the scientific method.
>
>"We speak and the word goes beyond us to consequences and ends which we had
>not conceived of" Gadamer
>
>---------- Original Message -----------
>From: Carlinhos Puig
>To: foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Sent: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:03:55 -0200
>Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
>
>> Hi Anthony,
>>
>> I´m relieved to see what you mean. My preocupation with the HIV/AIDS
>> issue is due to have seen many people being terrified by having an
>> exam, by the idea of having a disease that will kill them, and, in
>> the other hand, knowing those who are told they are HIV+, but are
>> healthy. I also lost a friend, in the times of AZT, who clearly died
>> out of fear. The more scared he got, the sicker, and, afterwords,
>> people said that he who takes AZT doesn´t need anything else to die
>> of, it does kill you. All that made me look for more information,
>> and finding the dissidents made me question "what if", what if HIV
>> does not cause any syndrome? Also, the reactions of some of the
>> medical doctors I worked with, their reaction over just my
>> questioning whether someone who is not sick at all should take any
>> medication, and whether there wouldn´t be any other factors that
>> influence ones immunity, not only the T4 cells (and, in fact,
>> immunity is a very very complex system), they just went mad at me.
>> The simple questioning made them get very angry and treat me as if I
>> was crasy, or as I was some kind of cruel perverse person. Their
>> power over life and death could not be question. That made me get
>> closer to the subject, and I only brought it here after someone
>> having mentioned it. I also do not like marxist thinking, never did.
>>
>> Carlos
>>
>> Em 15 Dec 2003, foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx escreveu:
>>
>> >Carlos, I merely posed the question rather than offered the answer! I
>> >suppose I am tempted to think at times that Marxism is the opium of the
>> >Marxists. I am not hostile to Marxist descriptions - it is when it seeks
>to
>> >prescribe that we run into all matter of difficulties. It leads me to
>think
>> >that it is just people with an eye for opportunity trying to create what
>> >they feel is a power vacuum and then move to persuade or coerce the rest
>of
>> >us into believing that the vacuum can only be filled by 'the party.' The
>> >best way to problematise the matter in my view is to move to the level
of
>> >micro power and look at how each of the dominant institutions you
>referred
>> >to is constituted in terms of their own internal dynamics and
discourses.
>> >This avoids the Marxist problem of finding some hidden societal essence
>> >which will come through once the veil of mystification has been pulled
>away
>> >leaving us to gaze on how capital in fact constitutes each of the
>> >institutions. Then we avoid the problem of thinking that the dissidents
>you
>> >refer to are brought together as a result of their class consciousness -
>> >their dissent, their oppositionalism is to be situated in the peculiar
>> >discourse of their particular institution. Consequently, they may never
>> find
>> >common purpose. The Marxists in turn will then ask if this is not just a
>> >reversion to pluralist thinking. Although in both pluralism and Marxism
>the
>> >question of power is deal with as a resource - power is a battery rather
>> >than the electricity that comes through the battery. Some way to go yet
>in
>> >finding a problematisation that is stronger and more persuasive than the
>> >counter problematization it invariably throws up
>> >
>> >Anthony
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Carlinhos Puig"
>> >To:
>> >Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 2:59 PM
>> >Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
>> >
>> >> Anthony,
>> >>
>> >> Thank you, here you got me!
>> >> I do not like the Marxist analysis. But, as a beginner, I see myself
>> >caught
>> >> in that discourse. Could you help me out? How can we problematize this
>> >issue
>> >> in a better way?
>> >> We have a "truth" considered by the majority as so, which is that HIV
>> >causes
>> >> AIDS. We have many scientists that question that truth. We have cases
>of
>> >> people, individuals, and we have a context of media, official
>scientific
>> >> press, and a culture of fear over the syndrome. How could we
>problematize
>> >> that, in dispite the fact that we don´t know whether those scientists
>so
>> >> called dissidents are, in fact, aproaching the issue in a way that ...
>> >that
>> >> what? I don´t even know how to put it.
>> >> I don´t know whether it is whorthwhile, but this could be a good
>> exercise.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks again,
>> >>
>> >> Carlos
>> >>
>> >> Em 14 Dec 2003, foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx escreveu:
>> >>
>> >> >Carlos, this seems very true but how would it differ from a Marxist
>> >> analysis
>> >> >of the same subject? The marginalisation, demonisation, role of the
>> >> >pharmecutical companies all seems to be the way Marxists would
>describe
>> >it
>> >> >
>> >> >Anthony
>> >> >----- Original Message -----
>> >> >From: "Carlinhos Puig"
>> >> >To:
>> >> >Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 12:16 PM
>> >> >Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
>> >> >
>> >> >> Anthony,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Well, yes, I must agree with you, but that similarity does not
>change
>> >the
>> >> >> problem of HIV/AIDS. Dissidents are people who are doctors,
>> phisitians,
>> >> >> researchers, people from all around the world, and they do describe
>> the
>> >> >> problem in a very reasonable way. Their view is that aids could be
>> >caused
>> >> >by
>> >> >> the way of life of a person - using drugs, starvation, compulsive
>sex,
>> >> and
>> >> >> they do include cigarette smoking as an activity that causes
>> >> >> immunodeficiency.
>> >> >> What strikes me in that controversy is the fact that very reliable
>> >> >> scientists cease to have a voice in the official medical press, are
>> >> >> ridiculized in the media, after just questioning a more accurate
>> >research
>> >> >> before stating something as a truth.
>> >> >> Personally, I am acquainted with quite a number of people who are
>HIV
>> >+,
>> >> >but
>> >> >> do try to live a healthy life (some of these people just refuse to
>> take
>> >> >any
>> >> >> medication at all) and none of them is getting sick, in a period of
>> >over
>> >> >ten
>> >> >> years. Actually, they seem to be healthier than me, and I do smoke
>> >> tobaco,
>> >> >> but I´m not labeled HIV+.
>> >> >> I cannot be sure about what is really happening, but a fact is that
>> >those
>> >> >> scientists do have a good point on the issue, but the world deals
>with
>> >> >aids
>> >> >> in a very sensationalist way. And no one can deny that the
>> >farmaceutical
>> >> >> industry does have quite a big lot of profit out of selling
>medication
>> >to
>> >> >> that syndrome.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Carlos
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Em 13 Dec 2003, foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx escreveu:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >Carlos, while there is merit to your point do you not think that a
>> >> >> >similarity can be drawn with the tobacco industry which disputes
>the
>> >> link
>> >> >> >between cigarettes and cancer?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Anthony
>> >> >> >----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >From: "Carlinhos Puig"
>> >> >> >To:
>> >> >> >Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 10:55 PM
>> >> >> >Subject: Re: combats with AIDS, and Foucault's personal attitude
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Hi,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I really believe Foucault would be another personallity signing
>the
>> >> >list
>> >> >> >of
>> >> >> >> the "Dissidents of Aids", the group of scientists who question
>the
>> >> fact
>> >> >> >that
>> >> >> >> there is no scientific proof that it is the HIV virus that
causes
>> >the
>> >> >> >> sindrome. I think Foucault would line up with South Africa´s
>> >> president,
>> >> >> >> standing up for having food for people who die of symptoms that
>are
>> >> >> >> considered aids, in Africa, but who are starving, and have not
>been
>> >> >> tested
>> >> >> >> (an HIV test would cost an amount that is unafordable to people
>who
>> >> are
>> >> >> >> starving, starvation have very similar symptoms to those
>attributed
>> >to
>> >> >> >> AIDS).
>> >> >> >> I think Foucault would question the farmaceutical industry,
whith
>> >> >bilions
>> >> >> >a
>> >> >> >> year involved in the discussion. He would argue and stand for a
>> >Nobel
>> >> >> >Prize
>> >> >> >> scientist who has no voice any longer in the official medical
>> press,
>> >> >the
>> >> >> >> same one who developed the exam that tells HIV+ people the
>> "quantity
>> >> of
>> >> >> >> virus" they have, and he has told the world, after receiving the
>> >Nobel
>> >> >> >> Prize, that what he had developed wouldn´t be good to test HIV,
>and
>> >> so,
>> >> >> he
>> >> >> >> was "banished" from the medical society.
>> >> >> >> If anyone here is thinking this brazilian student is being
>> >"paranoic"
>> >> >or
>> >> >> >is
>> >> >> >> having "conspiratory thinking" do search for the words 'Aids
>> >> >dissidents'
>> >> >> >and
>> >> >> >> see their point of view. Power? That´s a good example IF they
are
>> to
>> >> be
>> >> >> >> right.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Carlos
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________
>> >> >> >> Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
>> >> >> >> Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
>> >> >> >> Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >----------
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _________________________________________________________
>> >> >> Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
>> >> >> Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
>> >> >> Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >----------
>> >>
>> >> _________________________________________________________
>> >> Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
>> >> Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
>> >> Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >----------
>>
>> _________________________________________________________
>> Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
>> Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
>> Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
>------- End of Original Message -------
>
>----------
_________________________________________________________
Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
Ofertas imperdíveis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/