Peter,
Thanks for the response. I have a question about: "The occurrence of
representation is transcendental in relation to the episteme.
Representation seems to have its own transhistorical nature and limits,
even as it changes over time due to epistemic shifts."
Are you talking about "forms" here? It seems to me that transhistorical
nature and limits of representation recalls such. Do you know where I
could find that interview you referred to??
Thanks,
Daniel Spector
Tisch School of the Arts, NYU
721 Broadway, Room 303
New York, NY 10003
tel: 212.998.1846 fax: 212.998.1855
-----Original Message-----
From: foucault-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:foucault-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
foucault-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 11:55 AM
To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Foucault-L Digest, Vol 6, Issue 25
Send Foucault-L mailing list submissions to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: request for moderation (Allen Miller)
2. Re: request for moderation (c.ofarrell@xxxxxxxxxx)
3. How do we use Foucault texts in teaching? (Lisahennon@xxxxxxx)
4. Re: "Representation" in The Order of Things
(Peter Winston Fettner)
5. Re: How do we use Foucault texts in teaching? (Linda J. Graham)
6. Re: How do we use Foucault texts in teaching? (michael bibby)
7. Re: How do we use Foucault texts in teaching? (Linda J. Graham)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 08:19:44 -0400
From: "Allen Miller" <millerpa@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] request for moderation
To: <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <s493bb2c.035@xxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
I agree with Mark. I simply delete what I don't want or don't have
time to read.
Allen
Paul Allen Miller
Professor of Classics and Comparative Literature
Director of Comparative Literature
Editor, Transactions of the American Philological Association
Languages, Literatures and Cultures
University of South Carolina
Columbia, SC 29208
803-777-0473
pamiller@xxxxxx
>>> mark.kelly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 06/17/06 7:56 AM >>>
My two cents on the moderation issue:
Back in the SPOON days, we used to manage fine unmoderated. A few
people would send someone spammy or trolly stuff to the list, but they
were generally ignored - at least, I had no trouble ignoring them.
The previous moderation on this list saw most of my emails not allowed
through. I feel that the list has declined in quality greatly since
the move to foucault.info - expressing this feeling was in fact one of
the things which got me moderated.
My feeling now is that we are having teething troubles going
unmoderated. The regular posters are relative newbies to the list, and
are used to a heavily moderated list. I expect that things will
quickly find an equilibrium.
Rupert's argument that we have censorship either way so we should
therefore deliberately censor posting is true in its premises but
makes no sense as an argument. Yes, people jumping on posters is a
form of censorship. But I have no problem with this, since frankly
people often need to be discouraged from posting (I didn't read any of
the emails Rupert is referring to though, so am not commenting on his
case). I don't think assigning this function to a well-meaning elite
and giving them power to censor by fiat is a good way to go, though;
at least not yet. Let's see if we can't play nicely first.
On 6/17/06, Mr. Rupert Russell <rhr30@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I would personally like to see some form of moderation. I used to have
posts
> moderated and were always fair. I didn't like having my email taken
apart
> the other day like that which wasn't very pleasant and discourages me
from
> posting on this list in the future - which is a form of censurship.
Rupert
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: foucault-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:foucault-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> admin-foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: 17 June 2006 08:19
> To: Mailing-list
> Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] request for moderation
>
> The list has been unfiltered and unmoderated for the last 2 weeks -
the
> subject line already questions this change.
>
> There are two positions:
> 1. The list is able to auto-regulate itself, list members should not
be
> policed or censured, freedom of speech, mirror of the diversity of
real life
> manners and discourses, better more messages than long silence, just
hit the
> "delete" button or unsubscribe, etc.
> 2. The list needs a minimal policy and moderation as defined there:
> http://foucault.info/Foucault-L/
>
> Since the transfer of the Foucault-L from Spoon collective in december
2004,
> I've been semi-moderating and filtering out:
> - off-subject posts (no link with Foucault)
> - messages without elaborated information (such as "i'm in holiday"
> "thank you" and everything in the "weather is beautiful" category)
> - polemical messages (as fully described by Foucault in the article
> "Polemics, Politics and Problematizations")
>
> The majority of the members are listening in silence: they may figure
this
> space as a public forum with an audience of +1000 people, they
hesitate to
> grab the mike, knowing that this is also recorded and archived for
good, in
> search engines etc. I understand this position but I also think the
ratio
> contributor/listener is out of proportion: this is actually an issue
in many
> lists.
> Also note that during this last year, at least 3 members argued with
me in
> private and unsubscribed as they disagreed with one of the 3 cited
rules of
> filtering.
>
> I can no longer semi-moderate the list and I encourage the Foucault-L
to
> discuss and choose between option 1 auto-regulation and option 2
> semi-moderation. For option 2, we'll need new volunteers to moderate.
>
> Camille
> Foucault-L admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
>
_______________________________________________
Foucault-L mailing list
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:36:17 +1000 (EST)
From: <c.ofarrell@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] request for moderation
To: Mailing-list <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <20060617223617.CEF80219@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
First of all I would like to thank the administrator of this list for
all the stirling work of moderation since the list moved to
foucault.info.
Without making any reference to recent posts, I personally favour the
first position outlined by the administrator. Although this sometimes
means way out posts - I like the risk of unregulated discussion. The
delete button is not hard to use. Anybody out there remember the early
feral days of the net? I regret that many email lists have become a lot
more sanitised since those early experimental days.
-----------------------------------
There are two positions:
1. The list is able to auto-regulate itself, list members should not be
policed or censured, freedom of speech, mirror of the diversity of real
life manners and discourses, better more messages than long silence,
just hit the "delete" button or unsubscribe, etc.
Clare
****************************************
Clare O'Farrell
email: c.ofarrell@xxxxxxxxxx
website: http://www.michel-foucault.com
****************************************
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 09:34:30 EDT
From: Lisahennon@xxxxxxx
Subject: [Foucault-L] How do we use Foucault texts in teaching?
To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <244.cb69389.31c55ee6@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi, I've always tried to avoid discussions of moderation because the
procedures obscure the issues, at least for me. Instead, I have a very
open-ended
question for the list serve. I would not consider myself a Foucault
scholar, but
I do use his work in my own research in education and teacher education.
At
a time when U.S. educators are held to standards of procedure,
especially the
reductive notions of "good teaching practices" and "outcome-based"
research, I
find it nearly impossible to incorporate Foucault into my teaching for
prospective teachers. I teach a History of Education course and find
ample
opportunities there, but in other teacher education courses, I confront
a rather
Foucaultian obstacle of failing to meet the standards of "truth-telling"
as
required by any teacher education program. Any thoughts?
Lisa Hennon
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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:34:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Peter Winston Fettner <pfettner@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] "Representation" in The Order of Things
To: Mailing-list <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <20060617153446.AFV57761@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Dear Daniel:
The theme of representation in the "Order of Things" seems to
me complicated. On one hand, the epistemes form a kind of
"positive unconscious" which structures our representations of
nature and society. At any given time in history, there are
representations, but with different structures and different
relationships to knowledge.
But during the Enlightenment, representations became one of
the most important terms of discourse; representation was
thematized. The Cartesians rejected Newton's concept of
gravity as an "occult property" because it cannot be
represented as such. The table, which was one of the models
for knowledge during the Enlightenment, was oriented towards
organizing representations.
In other words, and Foucault had complained of something to
this effect in a later interview, the occurence of
representation is transcendental in relation to the episteme.
Representation seems to have its own transhistorical nature
and limits, even as it changes over time due to epistemic
shifts. So, it's been difficult for me to place the concept
clearly within The Order of Things.
Yours,
Peter
Peter Winston Fettner
Department of Philosophy,
Intellectual Heritage Program
Temple University
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 07:04:48 +1000
From: "Linda J. Graham" <ljgraham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] How do we use Foucault texts in teaching?
To: "Mailing-list" <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <01f201c69251$ab37e090$d92fe23c@Linda>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Lisa,
This is a really interesting question/diversion. In Australia, I don't
think we are as far down the bureacratisation of teaching and teacher ed
as the US but there is a strong backlash against anything smelling
remotely "postmodern". This has resulted in very strong suggestions
that we remove the "F" word from govt research grant applications
(believe it or not this is a reference to Foucault, not the other F word
- that could probably still fly!). The trick it seems is to get the
concepts in but not name them. The other thing I've seen work is
secondary citations - the work of philosophers of education (i.e.
Michael Peters and the like).
The same applies to teacher ed in a way. Although I guess this is
"un-truth telling". I was teaching in a core unit last year which is
pretty much based on Foucauldian principals but the thing is that only a
bare minimum of students would go away and read three chapters of D&P,
or some of Rose's Governing the Soul - about half didn't even read the
unit text (which I found an entertaining read!). Those that did read
some Foucault were like deer in headlights - it was very hard for them
to relate what they were reading to anything else in their teacher ed
course (or life for that matter) because everything they'd been learning
was decontextualised and discretely packaged in line with the
requirements set out by regulatory bodies - the standards of any teacher
education program as you describe.
My way around that was (in the very, very short tutorial times we had)
was to explain the connections by way of analogy and concept (and groovy
drawings on the board). I even got the F word into a developmental
psychology class "not everything is bad but everything is dangerous"...
although I was never invited back to that one! The more scripted our
work becomes or the more we move to on-line environments the harder this
gets to do - which I guess, is where you're at?
I'd be very interested to hear more about the constraints that limit
your work in this area.
Cheers,
Linda
Linda J. Graham
Centre for Learning Innovation
Faculty of Education
Queensland University of Technology
Kelvin Grove QLD 4059, Australia
http://eprints.qut.edu.au/view/person/Graham,_Linda.html
CRICOS No 00213J
----- Original Message -----
From: Lisahennon@xxxxxxx
To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 11:34 PM
Subject: [Foucault-L] How do we use Foucault texts in teaching?
Hi, I've always tried to avoid discussions of moderation because the
procedures obscure the issues, at least for me. Instead, I have a very
open-ended question for the list serve. I would not consider myself a
Foucault scholar, but I do use his work in my own research in education
and teacher education. At a time when U.S. educators are held to
standards of procedure, especially the reductive notions of "good
teaching practices" and "outcome-based" research, I find it nearly
impossible to incorporate Foucault into my teaching for prospective
teachers. I teach a History of Education course and find ample
opportunities there, but in other teacher education courses, I confront
a rather Foucaultian obstacle of failing to meet the standards of
"truth-telling" as required by any teacher education program. Any
thoughts?
Lisa Hennon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
_______________________________________________
Foucault-L mailing list
-------------- next part --------------
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:51:21 +1000 (EST)
From: michael bibby <shmickeyd@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] How do we use Foucault texts in teaching?
To: Mailing-list <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <20060618025121.36727.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
<see comments embedded in text>
--- "Linda J. Graham" <ljgraham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Hi Lisa,
> This is a really interesting question/diversion. In
> Australia, I don't think we are as far down the
> bureacratisation of teaching and teacher ed as the
> US but there is a strong backlash against anything
> smelling remotely "postmodern". This has resulted
> in very strong suggestions that we remove the "F"
> word from govt research grant applications (believe
> it or not this is a reference to Foucault, not the
> other F word - that could probably still fly!). The
> trick it seems is to get the concepts in but not
> name them.
Foucault once said that he would quote Marx without
citing him, disguise Marx's concepts in forms that are
prima facie unreconizably Marxist.
The other thing I've seen work is
> secondary citations - the work of philosophers of
> education (i.e. Michael Peters and the like).
>
> The same applies to teacher ed in a way. Although I
> guess this is "un-truth telling". I was teaching in
> a core unit last year which is pretty much based on
> Foucauldian principals but the thing is that only a
> bare minimum of students would go away and read
> three chapters of D&P, or some of Rose's Governing
> the Soul - about half didn't even read the unit text
> (which I found an entertaining read!). Those that
> did read some Foucault were like deer in headlights
> - it was very hard for them to relate what they were
> reading to anything else in their teacher ed course
> (or life for that matter) because everything they'd
> been learning was decontextualised and discretely
> packaged in line with the requirements set out by
> regulatory bodies - the standards of any teacher
> education program as you describe.
>
> My way around that was (in the very, very short
> tutorial times we had) was to explain the
> connections by way of analogy and concept (and
> groovy drawings on the board). I even got the F
> word into a developmental psychology class "not
> everything is bad but everything is dangerous"...
> although I was never invited back to that one! The
> more scripted our work becomes or the more we move
> to on-line environments the harder this gets to do -
> which I guess, is where you're at?
>
> I'd be very interested to hear more about the
> constraints that limit your work in this area.
>
> Cheers,
> Linda
>
>
>
>
>
> Linda J. Graham
> Centre for Learning Innovation
> Faculty of Education
> Queensland University of Technology
> Kelvin Grove QLD 4059, Australia
>
http://eprints.qut.edu.au/view/person/Graham,_Linda.html
> CRICOS No 00213J
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lisahennon@xxxxxxx
> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 11:34 PM
> Subject: [Foucault-L] How do we use Foucault texts
> in teaching?
>
>
> Hi, I've always tried to avoid discussions of
> moderation because the procedures obscure the
> issues, at least for me. Instead, I have a very
> open-ended question for the list serve. I would not
> consider myself a Foucault scholar, but I do use his
> work in my own research in education and teacher
> education. At a time when U.S. educators are held
> to standards of procedure, especially the reductive
> notions of "good teaching practices" and
> "outcome-based" research, I find it nearly
> impossible to incorporate Foucault into my teaching
> for prospective teachers. I teach a History of
> Education course and find ample opportunities there,
> but in other teacher education courses, I confront a
> rather Foucaultian obstacle of failing to meet the
> standards of "truth-telling" as required by any
> teacher education program. Any thoughts?
> Lisa Hennon
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list>
_______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
____________________________________________________
On Yahoo!7
Dating: It's free to join and check out our great singles!
http://www.yahoo7.com.au/personals
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 16:18:24 +1000
From: "Linda J. Graham" <ljgraham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] How do we use Foucault texts in teaching?
To: "Mailing-list" <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <023301c6929f$016046e0$d92fe23c@Linda>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Touche Michael! Actually I read something about that again yesterday in
Clare's book:
'Sometimes Foucault deliberately fails to mention his sources for
strategic reasons or simply for his own amusement - to catch people out.
Karl Marx is usually the target in these instances. In the 1960s to
cite Marx was to make an ideological statement, to declare a position in
relation to one of the reigning schools of Marxist thought which had
dominated intellectual life since the end of World War II in France.
Foucault did not wish to align himself with, or even directly against,
any of these schools of thought. Neither did he wish to ignore what
Marx's work had to offer. As for catching people out, he remarks that
during the 1960s:
"it was good form... to cite Marx in the footnotes. So I was
careful to steer clear of that. But I could dredge him up... quite a
few passages I wrote referring to Marx... [I didn't cite him] to have
some fun, and to set a trap for those Marxists who pinned me down
precisely on those sentences. That was part of the game".
(O'Farrell, C. (2005). Michel Foucault, London: Sage, p. 5)
Of course, there are those on the Australian Research Council who will
recognise the concepts even when the name Foucault is not mentioned but
hopefully the lay-people who were appointed to the council by the
previous Minister of Education to sniff out "postmodern" project
applications won't... mind you, anything to do with social justice seems
to smack of "postmodernism" in the neoliberal mindset!
Cheers,
Linda
Linda J. Graham
Centre for Learning Innovation
Faculty of Education
Queensland University of Technology
Kelvin Grove QLD 4059, Australia
http://eprints.qut.edu.au/view/person/Graham,_Linda.html
CRICOS No 00213J
----- Original Message -----
From: "michael bibby" <shmickeyd@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Mailing-list" <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] How do we use Foucault texts in teaching?
>
> <see comments embedded in text>
>
> --- "Linda J. Graham" <ljgraham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> Hi Lisa,
>> This is a really interesting question/diversion. In
>> Australia, I don't think we are as far down the
>> bureacratisation of teaching and teacher ed as the
>> US but there is a strong backlash against anything
>> smelling remotely "postmodern". This has resulted
>> in very strong suggestions that we remove the "F"
>> word from govt research grant applications (believe
>> it or not this is a reference to Foucault, not the
>> other F word - that could probably still fly!). The
>> trick it seems is to get the concepts in but not
>> name them.
>
>
> Foucault once said that he would quote Marx without
> citing him, disguise Marx's concepts in forms that are
> prima facie unreconizably Marxist.
>
>
> The other thing I've seen work is
>> secondary citations - the work of philosophers of
>> education (i.e. Michael Peters and the like).
>>
>> The same applies to teacher ed in a way. Although I
>> guess this is "un-truth telling". I was teaching in
>> a core unit last year which is pretty much based on
>> Foucauldian principals but the thing is that only a
>> bare minimum of students would go away and read
>> three chapters of D&P, or some of Rose's Governing
>> the Soul - about half didn't even read the unit text
>> (which I found an entertaining read!). Those that
>> did read some Foucault were like deer in headlights
>> - it was very hard for them to relate what they were
>> reading to anything else in their teacher ed course
>> (or life for that matter) because everything they'd
>> been learning was decontextualised and discretely
>> packaged in line with the requirements set out by
>> regulatory bodies - the standards of any teacher
>> education program as you describe.
>>
>> My way around that was (in the very, very short
>> tutorial times we had) was to explain the
>> connections by way of analogy and concept (and
>> groovy drawings on the board). I even got the F
>> word into a developmental psychology class "not
>> everything is bad but everything is dangerous"...
>> although I was never invited back to that one! The
>> more scripted our work becomes or the more we move
>> to on-line environments the harder this gets to do -
>> which I guess, is where you're at?
>>
>> I'd be very interested to hear more about the
>> constraints that limit your work in this area.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Linda
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Linda J. Graham
>> Centre for Learning Innovation
>> Faculty of Education
>> Queensland University of Technology
>> Kelvin Grove QLD 4059, Australia
>>
> http://eprints.qut.edu.au/view/person/Graham,_Linda.html
>> CRICOS No 00213J
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Lisahennon@xxxxxxx
>> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 11:34 PM
>> Subject: [Foucault-L] How do we use Foucault texts
>> in teaching?
>>
>>
>> Hi, I've always tried to avoid discussions of
>> moderation because the procedures obscure the
>> issues, at least for me. Instead, I have a very
>> open-ended question for the list serve. I would not
>> consider myself a Foucault scholar, but I do use his
>> work in my own research in education and teacher
>> education. At a time when U.S. educators are held
>> to standards of procedure, especially the reductive
>> notions of "good teaching practices" and
>> "outcome-based" research, I find it nearly
>> impossible to incorporate Foucault into my teaching
>> for prospective teachers. I teach a History of
>> Education course and find ample opportunities there,
>> but in other teacher education courses, I confront a
>> rather Foucaultian obstacle of failing to meet the
>> standards of "truth-telling" as required by any
>> teacher education program. Any thoughts?
>> Lisa Hennon
>>
>>
>>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Foucault-L mailing list>
> _______________________________________________
>> Foucault-L mailing list
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> On Yahoo!7
> Dating: It's free to join and check out our great singles!
> http://www.yahoo7.com.au/personals
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
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Foucault-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://foucault.info/mailman/listinfo/foucault-l
End of Foucault-L Digest, Vol 6, Issue 25
*****************************************
Thanks for the response. I have a question about: "The occurrence of
representation is transcendental in relation to the episteme.
Representation seems to have its own transhistorical nature and limits,
even as it changes over time due to epistemic shifts."
Are you talking about "forms" here? It seems to me that transhistorical
nature and limits of representation recalls such. Do you know where I
could find that interview you referred to??
Thanks,
Daniel Spector
Tisch School of the Arts, NYU
721 Broadway, Room 303
New York, NY 10003
tel: 212.998.1846 fax: 212.998.1855
-----Original Message-----
From: foucault-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:foucault-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
foucault-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 11:55 AM
To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Foucault-L Digest, Vol 6, Issue 25
Send Foucault-L mailing list submissions to
foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://foucault.info/mailman/listinfo/foucault-l
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Foucault-L digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: request for moderation (Allen Miller)
2. Re: request for moderation (c.ofarrell@xxxxxxxxxx)
3. How do we use Foucault texts in teaching? (Lisahennon@xxxxxxx)
4. Re: "Representation" in The Order of Things
(Peter Winston Fettner)
5. Re: How do we use Foucault texts in teaching? (Linda J. Graham)
6. Re: How do we use Foucault texts in teaching? (michael bibby)
7. Re: How do we use Foucault texts in teaching? (Linda J. Graham)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 08:19:44 -0400
From: "Allen Miller" <millerpa@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] request for moderation
To: <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <s493bb2c.035@xxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
I agree with Mark. I simply delete what I don't want or don't have
time to read.
Allen
Paul Allen Miller
Professor of Classics and Comparative Literature
Director of Comparative Literature
Editor, Transactions of the American Philological Association
Languages, Literatures and Cultures
University of South Carolina
Columbia, SC 29208
803-777-0473
pamiller@xxxxxx
>>> mark.kelly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 06/17/06 7:56 AM >>>
My two cents on the moderation issue:
Back in the SPOON days, we used to manage fine unmoderated. A few
people would send someone spammy or trolly stuff to the list, but they
were generally ignored - at least, I had no trouble ignoring them.
The previous moderation on this list saw most of my emails not allowed
through. I feel that the list has declined in quality greatly since
the move to foucault.info - expressing this feeling was in fact one of
the things which got me moderated.
My feeling now is that we are having teething troubles going
unmoderated. The regular posters are relative newbies to the list, and
are used to a heavily moderated list. I expect that things will
quickly find an equilibrium.
Rupert's argument that we have censorship either way so we should
therefore deliberately censor posting is true in its premises but
makes no sense as an argument. Yes, people jumping on posters is a
form of censorship. But I have no problem with this, since frankly
people often need to be discouraged from posting (I didn't read any of
the emails Rupert is referring to though, so am not commenting on his
case). I don't think assigning this function to a well-meaning elite
and giving them power to censor by fiat is a good way to go, though;
at least not yet. Let's see if we can't play nicely first.
On 6/17/06, Mr. Rupert Russell <rhr30@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I would personally like to see some form of moderation. I used to have
posts
> moderated and were always fair. I didn't like having my email taken
apart
> the other day like that which wasn't very pleasant and discourages me
from
> posting on this list in the future - which is a form of censurship.
Rupert
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: foucault-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:foucault-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> admin-foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: 17 June 2006 08:19
> To: Mailing-list
> Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] request for moderation
>
> The list has been unfiltered and unmoderated for the last 2 weeks -
the
> subject line already questions this change.
>
> There are two positions:
> 1. The list is able to auto-regulate itself, list members should not
be
> policed or censured, freedom of speech, mirror of the diversity of
real life
> manners and discourses, better more messages than long silence, just
hit the
> "delete" button or unsubscribe, etc.
> 2. The list needs a minimal policy and moderation as defined there:
> http://foucault.info/Foucault-L/
>
> Since the transfer of the Foucault-L from Spoon collective in december
2004,
> I've been semi-moderating and filtering out:
> - off-subject posts (no link with Foucault)
> - messages without elaborated information (such as "i'm in holiday"
> "thank you" and everything in the "weather is beautiful" category)
> - polemical messages (as fully described by Foucault in the article
> "Polemics, Politics and Problematizations")
>
> The majority of the members are listening in silence: they may figure
this
> space as a public forum with an audience of +1000 people, they
hesitate to
> grab the mike, knowing that this is also recorded and archived for
good, in
> search engines etc. I understand this position but I also think the
ratio
> contributor/listener is out of proportion: this is actually an issue
in many
> lists.
> Also note that during this last year, at least 3 members argued with
me in
> private and unsubscribed as they disagreed with one of the 3 cited
rules of
> filtering.
>
> I can no longer semi-moderate the list and I encourage the Foucault-L
to
> discuss and choose between option 1 auto-regulation and option 2
> semi-moderation. For option 2, we'll need new volunteers to moderate.
>
> Camille
> Foucault-L admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
>
_______________________________________________
Foucault-L mailing list
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:36:17 +1000 (EST)
From: <c.ofarrell@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] request for moderation
To: Mailing-list <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <20060617223617.CEF80219@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
First of all I would like to thank the administrator of this list for
all the stirling work of moderation since the list moved to
foucault.info.
Without making any reference to recent posts, I personally favour the
first position outlined by the administrator. Although this sometimes
means way out posts - I like the risk of unregulated discussion. The
delete button is not hard to use. Anybody out there remember the early
feral days of the net? I regret that many email lists have become a lot
more sanitised since those early experimental days.
-----------------------------------
There are two positions:
1. The list is able to auto-regulate itself, list members should not be
policed or censured, freedom of speech, mirror of the diversity of real
life manners and discourses, better more messages than long silence,
just hit the "delete" button or unsubscribe, etc.
Clare
****************************************
Clare O'Farrell
email: c.ofarrell@xxxxxxxxxx
website: http://www.michel-foucault.com
****************************************
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 09:34:30 EDT
From: Lisahennon@xxxxxxx
Subject: [Foucault-L] How do we use Foucault texts in teaching?
To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <244.cb69389.31c55ee6@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi, I've always tried to avoid discussions of moderation because the
procedures obscure the issues, at least for me. Instead, I have a very
open-ended
question for the list serve. I would not consider myself a Foucault
scholar, but
I do use his work in my own research in education and teacher education.
At
a time when U.S. educators are held to standards of procedure,
especially the
reductive notions of "good teaching practices" and "outcome-based"
research, I
find it nearly impossible to incorporate Foucault into my teaching for
prospective teachers. I teach a History of Education course and find
ample
opportunities there, but in other teacher education courses, I confront
a rather
Foucaultian obstacle of failing to meet the standards of "truth-telling"
as
required by any teacher education program. Any thoughts?
Lisa Hennon
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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:34:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Peter Winston Fettner <pfettner@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] "Representation" in The Order of Things
To: Mailing-list <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <20060617153446.AFV57761@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Dear Daniel:
The theme of representation in the "Order of Things" seems to
me complicated. On one hand, the epistemes form a kind of
"positive unconscious" which structures our representations of
nature and society. At any given time in history, there are
representations, but with different structures and different
relationships to knowledge.
But during the Enlightenment, representations became one of
the most important terms of discourse; representation was
thematized. The Cartesians rejected Newton's concept of
gravity as an "occult property" because it cannot be
represented as such. The table, which was one of the models
for knowledge during the Enlightenment, was oriented towards
organizing representations.
In other words, and Foucault had complained of something to
this effect in a later interview, the occurence of
representation is transcendental in relation to the episteme.
Representation seems to have its own transhistorical nature
and limits, even as it changes over time due to epistemic
shifts. So, it's been difficult for me to place the concept
clearly within The Order of Things.
Yours,
Peter
Peter Winston Fettner
Department of Philosophy,
Intellectual Heritage Program
Temple University
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 07:04:48 +1000
From: "Linda J. Graham" <ljgraham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] How do we use Foucault texts in teaching?
To: "Mailing-list" <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <01f201c69251$ab37e090$d92fe23c@Linda>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Lisa,
This is a really interesting question/diversion. In Australia, I don't
think we are as far down the bureacratisation of teaching and teacher ed
as the US but there is a strong backlash against anything smelling
remotely "postmodern". This has resulted in very strong suggestions
that we remove the "F" word from govt research grant applications
(believe it or not this is a reference to Foucault, not the other F word
- that could probably still fly!). The trick it seems is to get the
concepts in but not name them. The other thing I've seen work is
secondary citations - the work of philosophers of education (i.e.
Michael Peters and the like).
The same applies to teacher ed in a way. Although I guess this is
"un-truth telling". I was teaching in a core unit last year which is
pretty much based on Foucauldian principals but the thing is that only a
bare minimum of students would go away and read three chapters of D&P,
or some of Rose's Governing the Soul - about half didn't even read the
unit text (which I found an entertaining read!). Those that did read
some Foucault were like deer in headlights - it was very hard for them
to relate what they were reading to anything else in their teacher ed
course (or life for that matter) because everything they'd been learning
was decontextualised and discretely packaged in line with the
requirements set out by regulatory bodies - the standards of any teacher
education program as you describe.
My way around that was (in the very, very short tutorial times we had)
was to explain the connections by way of analogy and concept (and groovy
drawings on the board). I even got the F word into a developmental
psychology class "not everything is bad but everything is dangerous"...
although I was never invited back to that one! The more scripted our
work becomes or the more we move to on-line environments the harder this
gets to do - which I guess, is where you're at?
I'd be very interested to hear more about the constraints that limit
your work in this area.
Cheers,
Linda
Linda J. Graham
Centre for Learning Innovation
Faculty of Education
Queensland University of Technology
Kelvin Grove QLD 4059, Australia
http://eprints.qut.edu.au/view/person/Graham,_Linda.html
CRICOS No 00213J
----- Original Message -----
From: Lisahennon@xxxxxxx
To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 11:34 PM
Subject: [Foucault-L] How do we use Foucault texts in teaching?
Hi, I've always tried to avoid discussions of moderation because the
procedures obscure the issues, at least for me. Instead, I have a very
open-ended question for the list serve. I would not consider myself a
Foucault scholar, but I do use his work in my own research in education
and teacher education. At a time when U.S. educators are held to
standards of procedure, especially the reductive notions of "good
teaching practices" and "outcome-based" research, I find it nearly
impossible to incorporate Foucault into my teaching for prospective
teachers. I teach a History of Education course and find ample
opportunities there, but in other teacher education courses, I confront
a rather Foucaultian obstacle of failing to meet the standards of
"truth-telling" as required by any teacher education program. Any
thoughts?
Lisa Hennon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
_______________________________________________
Foucault-L mailing list
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:51:21 +1000 (EST)
From: michael bibby <shmickeyd@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] How do we use Foucault texts in teaching?
To: Mailing-list <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <20060618025121.36727.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
<see comments embedded in text>
--- "Linda J. Graham" <ljgraham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Hi Lisa,
> This is a really interesting question/diversion. In
> Australia, I don't think we are as far down the
> bureacratisation of teaching and teacher ed as the
> US but there is a strong backlash against anything
> smelling remotely "postmodern". This has resulted
> in very strong suggestions that we remove the "F"
> word from govt research grant applications (believe
> it or not this is a reference to Foucault, not the
> other F word - that could probably still fly!). The
> trick it seems is to get the concepts in but not
> name them.
Foucault once said that he would quote Marx without
citing him, disguise Marx's concepts in forms that are
prima facie unreconizably Marxist.
The other thing I've seen work is
> secondary citations - the work of philosophers of
> education (i.e. Michael Peters and the like).
>
> The same applies to teacher ed in a way. Although I
> guess this is "un-truth telling". I was teaching in
> a core unit last year which is pretty much based on
> Foucauldian principals but the thing is that only a
> bare minimum of students would go away and read
> three chapters of D&P, or some of Rose's Governing
> the Soul - about half didn't even read the unit text
> (which I found an entertaining read!). Those that
> did read some Foucault were like deer in headlights
> - it was very hard for them to relate what they were
> reading to anything else in their teacher ed course
> (or life for that matter) because everything they'd
> been learning was decontextualised and discretely
> packaged in line with the requirements set out by
> regulatory bodies - the standards of any teacher
> education program as you describe.
>
> My way around that was (in the very, very short
> tutorial times we had) was to explain the
> connections by way of analogy and concept (and
> groovy drawings on the board). I even got the F
> word into a developmental psychology class "not
> everything is bad but everything is dangerous"...
> although I was never invited back to that one! The
> more scripted our work becomes or the more we move
> to on-line environments the harder this gets to do -
> which I guess, is where you're at?
>
> I'd be very interested to hear more about the
> constraints that limit your work in this area.
>
> Cheers,
> Linda
>
>
>
>
>
> Linda J. Graham
> Centre for Learning Innovation
> Faculty of Education
> Queensland University of Technology
> Kelvin Grove QLD 4059, Australia
>
http://eprints.qut.edu.au/view/person/Graham,_Linda.html
> CRICOS No 00213J
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lisahennon@xxxxxxx
> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 11:34 PM
> Subject: [Foucault-L] How do we use Foucault texts
> in teaching?
>
>
> Hi, I've always tried to avoid discussions of
> moderation because the procedures obscure the
> issues, at least for me. Instead, I have a very
> open-ended question for the list serve. I would not
> consider myself a Foucault scholar, but I do use his
> work in my own research in education and teacher
> education. At a time when U.S. educators are held
> to standards of procedure, especially the reductive
> notions of "good teaching practices" and
> "outcome-based" research, I find it nearly
> impossible to incorporate Foucault into my teaching
> for prospective teachers. I teach a History of
> Education course and find ample opportunities there,
> but in other teacher education courses, I confront a
> rather Foucaultian obstacle of failing to meet the
> standards of "truth-telling" as required by any
> teacher education program. Any thoughts?
> Lisa Hennon
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list>
_______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
____________________________________________________
On Yahoo!7
Dating: It's free to join and check out our great singles!
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 16:18:24 +1000
From: "Linda J. Graham" <ljgraham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] How do we use Foucault texts in teaching?
To: "Mailing-list" <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <023301c6929f$016046e0$d92fe23c@Linda>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Touche Michael! Actually I read something about that again yesterday in
Clare's book:
'Sometimes Foucault deliberately fails to mention his sources for
strategic reasons or simply for his own amusement - to catch people out.
Karl Marx is usually the target in these instances. In the 1960s to
cite Marx was to make an ideological statement, to declare a position in
relation to one of the reigning schools of Marxist thought which had
dominated intellectual life since the end of World War II in France.
Foucault did not wish to align himself with, or even directly against,
any of these schools of thought. Neither did he wish to ignore what
Marx's work had to offer. As for catching people out, he remarks that
during the 1960s:
"it was good form... to cite Marx in the footnotes. So I was
careful to steer clear of that. But I could dredge him up... quite a
few passages I wrote referring to Marx... [I didn't cite him] to have
some fun, and to set a trap for those Marxists who pinned me down
precisely on those sentences. That was part of the game".
(O'Farrell, C. (2005). Michel Foucault, London: Sage, p. 5)
Of course, there are those on the Australian Research Council who will
recognise the concepts even when the name Foucault is not mentioned but
hopefully the lay-people who were appointed to the council by the
previous Minister of Education to sniff out "postmodern" project
applications won't... mind you, anything to do with social justice seems
to smack of "postmodernism" in the neoliberal mindset!
Cheers,
Linda
Linda J. Graham
Centre for Learning Innovation
Faculty of Education
Queensland University of Technology
Kelvin Grove QLD 4059, Australia
http://eprints.qut.edu.au/view/person/Graham,_Linda.html
CRICOS No 00213J
----- Original Message -----
From: "michael bibby" <shmickeyd@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Mailing-list" <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] How do we use Foucault texts in teaching?
>
> <see comments embedded in text>
>
> --- "Linda J. Graham" <ljgraham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> Hi Lisa,
>> This is a really interesting question/diversion. In
>> Australia, I don't think we are as far down the
>> bureacratisation of teaching and teacher ed as the
>> US but there is a strong backlash against anything
>> smelling remotely "postmodern". This has resulted
>> in very strong suggestions that we remove the "F"
>> word from govt research grant applications (believe
>> it or not this is a reference to Foucault, not the
>> other F word - that could probably still fly!). The
>> trick it seems is to get the concepts in but not
>> name them.
>
>
> Foucault once said that he would quote Marx without
> citing him, disguise Marx's concepts in forms that are
> prima facie unreconizably Marxist.
>
>
> The other thing I've seen work is
>> secondary citations - the work of philosophers of
>> education (i.e. Michael Peters and the like).
>>
>> The same applies to teacher ed in a way. Although I
>> guess this is "un-truth telling". I was teaching in
>> a core unit last year which is pretty much based on
>> Foucauldian principals but the thing is that only a
>> bare minimum of students would go away and read
>> three chapters of D&P, or some of Rose's Governing
>> the Soul - about half didn't even read the unit text
>> (which I found an entertaining read!). Those that
>> did read some Foucault were like deer in headlights
>> - it was very hard for them to relate what they were
>> reading to anything else in their teacher ed course
>> (or life for that matter) because everything they'd
>> been learning was decontextualised and discretely
>> packaged in line with the requirements set out by
>> regulatory bodies - the standards of any teacher
>> education program as you describe.
>>
>> My way around that was (in the very, very short
>> tutorial times we had) was to explain the
>> connections by way of analogy and concept (and
>> groovy drawings on the board). I even got the F
>> word into a developmental psychology class "not
>> everything is bad but everything is dangerous"...
>> although I was never invited back to that one! The
>> more scripted our work becomes or the more we move
>> to on-line environments the harder this gets to do -
>> which I guess, is where you're at?
>>
>> I'd be very interested to hear more about the
>> constraints that limit your work in this area.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Linda
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Linda J. Graham
>> Centre for Learning Innovation
>> Faculty of Education
>> Queensland University of Technology
>> Kelvin Grove QLD 4059, Australia
>>
> http://eprints.qut.edu.au/view/person/Graham,_Linda.html
>> CRICOS No 00213J
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Lisahennon@xxxxxxx
>> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 11:34 PM
>> Subject: [Foucault-L] How do we use Foucault texts
>> in teaching?
>>
>>
>> Hi, I've always tried to avoid discussions of
>> moderation because the procedures obscure the
>> issues, at least for me. Instead, I have a very
>> open-ended question for the list serve. I would not
>> consider myself a Foucault scholar, but I do use his
>> work in my own research in education and teacher
>> education. At a time when U.S. educators are held
>> to standards of procedure, especially the reductive
>> notions of "good teaching practices" and
>> "outcome-based" research, I find it nearly
>> impossible to incorporate Foucault into my teaching
>> for prospective teachers. I teach a History of
>> Education course and find ample opportunities there,
>> but in other teacher education courses, I confront a
>> rather Foucaultian obstacle of failing to meet the
>> standards of "truth-telling" as required by any
>> teacher education program. Any thoughts?
>> Lisa Hennon
>>
>>
>>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Foucault-L mailing list>
> _______________________________________________
>> Foucault-L mailing list
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> On Yahoo!7
> Dating: It's free to join and check out our great singles!
> http://www.yahoo7.com.au/personals
> _______________________________________________
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