Hi Yoshie,
and thanks for the clarification on the translation.
actually, when Foucault uses the term "experience" he means "reciprocal genesis of subject and object;" that is, of the knowing subject and known object. And in the passage cited he is obviously relating this to thought: i.e. "the act that posits a subject and an object." This is why I thought "through" or "by way of" may have been a better translations, but as Chetan pointed out, "as" works just as well here.
thus I am in accord with the first part of your second point.
as regards the relation to modernity, this seems somewhat more tenuous, since in the text cited, Foucault is writing about classical Greek experience of Aphrodisia: i.e. how free Greek males constituted certain aspects of themselves as object of reflection, intervention, and transformation: i.e. how they constituted themselves as both knowing subject and known object.
thanks once again for the clarification,
Kevin.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: critical.montages@xxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:00:37 -0500
> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] translation question
>
> On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 8:57 AM, Kevin Turner <kevin.turner@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>> in The Use of Pleasure, Foucault describes a history of truth in the
>> following way:
>>
>> 'Not a history that would be concerned with what might be true in
>> the fields of learning, but an analysis of the "games of truth,"
>> the games of truth and error through which being is historically
>> constituted [constitutes itself historically] as experience; that is,
>> as something that can and must be thought' (UP: 6-7).
>>
>> What I'm specifically interested in is the part that states that
>> "being is historically constituted as experience." And what I'm
>> wondering about is the "as" in this sentence. Shouldn't this
>> read "by experience" or "by way of experience" or "through experience"?
>
> The French text says "à travers lesquels l'Être se constitue
> historiquement comme expérience, c'est-à-dire comme pouvant et devant
> être pensé."
>
> As a matter of writing and translation first of all, "comme pouvant et
> devant être pensé" is a clarifying restatement of "comme expérience,"
> so "comme" before "expérience" should be "as," just the same as the
> "comme" before "pouvant et devant être pensé."
>
> Secondly, as a matter of philosophy, for Foucault the "being" of a
> modern human being is not a given that exists prior to and independent
> of "experience," nor did the phenomenon called "experience" as we know
> it exist before modernity. In other words, he is calling attention to
> a historically very new phenomenon -- "being constituted as
> experience" -- whose modern origins have been forgotten, constantly
> obscured by our everyday existence/experience itself.
>
> Thirdly, what inevitably gets lost is the double meanings of the
> French word "expérience," which is not only "experience" but also
> "experiment." The latter meaning fell out of the usage of the English
> language after the end of the eighteenth century, according to Raymond
> Williams (see his Keywords).
>
> Yoshie
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
____________________________________________________________
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and thanks for the clarification on the translation.
actually, when Foucault uses the term "experience" he means "reciprocal genesis of subject and object;" that is, of the knowing subject and known object. And in the passage cited he is obviously relating this to thought: i.e. "the act that posits a subject and an object." This is why I thought "through" or "by way of" may have been a better translations, but as Chetan pointed out, "as" works just as well here.
thus I am in accord with the first part of your second point.
as regards the relation to modernity, this seems somewhat more tenuous, since in the text cited, Foucault is writing about classical Greek experience of Aphrodisia: i.e. how free Greek males constituted certain aspects of themselves as object of reflection, intervention, and transformation: i.e. how they constituted themselves as both knowing subject and known object.
thanks once again for the clarification,
Kevin.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: critical.montages@xxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:00:37 -0500
> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] translation question
>
> On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 8:57 AM, Kevin Turner <kevin.turner@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>> in The Use of Pleasure, Foucault describes a history of truth in the
>> following way:
>>
>> 'Not a history that would be concerned with what might be true in
>> the fields of learning, but an analysis of the "games of truth,"
>> the games of truth and error through which being is historically
>> constituted [constitutes itself historically] as experience; that is,
>> as something that can and must be thought' (UP: 6-7).
>>
>> What I'm specifically interested in is the part that states that
>> "being is historically constituted as experience." And what I'm
>> wondering about is the "as" in this sentence. Shouldn't this
>> read "by experience" or "by way of experience" or "through experience"?
>
> The French text says "à travers lesquels l'Être se constitue
> historiquement comme expérience, c'est-à-dire comme pouvant et devant
> être pensé."
>
> As a matter of writing and translation first of all, "comme pouvant et
> devant être pensé" is a clarifying restatement of "comme expérience,"
> so "comme" before "expérience" should be "as," just the same as the
> "comme" before "pouvant et devant être pensé."
>
> Secondly, as a matter of philosophy, for Foucault the "being" of a
> modern human being is not a given that exists prior to and independent
> of "experience," nor did the phenomenon called "experience" as we know
> it exist before modernity. In other words, he is calling attention to
> a historically very new phenomenon -- "being constituted as
> experience" -- whose modern origins have been forgotten, constantly
> obscured by our everyday existence/experience itself.
>
> Thirdly, what inevitably gets lost is the double meanings of the
> French word "expérience," which is not only "experience" but also
> "experiment." The latter meaning fell out of the usage of the English
> language after the end of the eighteenth century, according to Raymond
> Williams (see his Keywords).
>
> Yoshie
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
____________________________________________________________
FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop!
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