My thought was that Veyne not so much mis-read Foucault, but just happened
to use the same word to describe something quite different. I am guessing
that he wrote his account prior to Foucault's endowing this word the special
technical sense that he does in the 1977-8 lectures. Because if Veyne had
written "F revolutionizes history" after these lectures he certainly would
have at least made note of his different usage (and most likely would have
simply chosen to call the practices of roman emperors by a different name).
That is ONLY an educated guess on my part, of course. Others, I am sure,
will posses the more detailed knowledge of Veyne and the history of this
essay's publication needed either to substantiate or falsify my attempt to
make sense of this odd discrepancy in usage.
N
On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Chetan Vemuri <aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
> its funny
> i've never found a perfect, birds-eye secondary commentator on Foucault.
> Or perfect is a point of view.
> Each has his or her own approach based on their specialty or theoretical
> paradigm or even axe to grind.
> but this is not a revolutionary idea as it was probably obvious to begin
> with.
>
> I never thought about that aspect of Veyne's misreading of Foucault's
> pastoralism.
> I usually have nothing but praise for his understanding of Foucault's work
> on ethics and the care of the self.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 12:47 PM, Nathaniel Roberts <npr4@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> >wrote:
>
> > This is interesting. Because I seem to remember that the way Veyne
> > describes "pastoral" power in this essay is totally at odds with
> Foucault's
> > own usage, as developed in the 1977-8 lectures ('Security, Territory,
> > Population') --viz. Veyne ascribes a pastoral logic to the practices of
> > pre-Christian Roman emperors, whereas for Foucault pastoralism was
> > precisely
> > absent in the Greek and Roman contexts (he makes a big deal out of this
> in
> > the 1977-8 lectures).
> >
> > So perhaps Veyne published the essay earlier in 1978, before having a
> > chance
> > to take account of the latest developments in F's conceptual terminology.
> >
> > Apart from describing pastoral power in terms totally incompatible with
> > F's,
> > however, I've always thought Veyne's essay was a really great one,
> > especially for helping students to grasp the specificity and brilliance
> of
> > F's method. And yet I am often hesitant to assign it on account of the
> > confusion that could result with respect to their divergent usage of this
> > important term. This difficulty can of course be overcome if one takes
> the
> > time to explain this one point of difficulty to students in advance.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Nate
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Kevin Turner <kevin.turner@xxxxxxxxx
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Fouad, and thanks for the information.
> > >
> > > Actually, looking through the essay again, Veyne references both
> "Society
> > > Must be Defended" and "The History of Sexuality" which make it clear
> that
> > > the text could not have been written in 1971.
> > >
> > > Thanks once again,
> > > Kevin.
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: fkalouche@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Sent: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 04:54:50 -0500
> > > > To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Foucault Revolutionises History
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Kevin,
> > > >
> > > > The discrepancy in dates may be related to the fact that Veyne's
> book:
> > > > Comment on écrit l'histoire: Essai d'épistémologie was initially
> > > > published in 1971 and then republished a few times in new editions
> that
> > > > included "Foucault révolutionne l'histoire." Naissance de la
> > biopolitique
> > > > refers to a 1979 edition of Comment on écrit l'histoire published in
> > > > Seuil's "Points - histoire" series, where "Foucault révolutionne
> > > > l'histoire" is cited on pages 227-230 (see endnote 4 of the lesson of
> > > > January 10, 1979, p. 26). However, in the author's list of
> publications
> > > > ("Du même auteur") at the end of the latest book of Veyne on
> > > > Foucault--Foucault: sa pensée, sa personne, Albin Michel, 2008, only
> > two
> > > > editions are mentioned: the 1971 orginal publication and the 1996
> > edition
> > > > in Seuil's "Points - histoire" series.
> > > >
> > > > Furthermore, in his new book menioned above, Veyne refers to a 1978
> > date
> > > > for his essay on Foucault ("Foucault révolutionne l'histoire"). See
> > page
> > > > 28, footnote 2.
> > > >
> > > > I do not know if this helps.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > >
> > > > Fouad Kalouche
> > > >
> > > >> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 00:43:10 -0800> From: kevin.turner@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To:
> > > >> foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [Foucault-L] Foucault
> > Revolutionises
> > > >> History> > Can anybody tell me when this essay by Paul Veyne was
> > > >> originally written?> > In a text I'm reading it states that it was
> > > >> written in 1978. In the text itself it also says 1978. But on the
> > > >> copyright page in A. I. Davidson's edited collection (Foucault and
> his
> > > >> Interlocutors), it states that it was written in 1971.> > Regards,>
> > > >> Kevin.> > _______________________________________________>
> Foucault-L
> > > >> mailing list
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills.
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Foucault-L mailing list
> > >
> > > ____________________________________________________________
> > > Receive Notifications of Incoming Messages
> > > Easily monitor multiple email accounts & access them with a click.
> > > Visit http://www.inbox.com/notifier and check it out!
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Foucault-L mailing list
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Nathaniel Roberts
> > Adjunct Assistant Professor
> > Department of Anthropology
> > Columbia University
> > -and-
> > Part Time Faculty Member
> > Department of Anthropology
> > The New School for Social Research
> > _______________________________________________
> > Foucault-L mailing list
>
>
>
>
> --
> Chetan Vemuri
> West Des Moines, IA
> aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
> (515)-418-2771
> "You say you want a Revolution! Well you know, we all want to change the
> world"
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
>
--
Nathaniel Roberts
Adjunct Assistant Professor
Department of Anthropology
Columbia University
-and-
Part Time Faculty Member
Department of Anthropology
The New School for Social Research
to use the same word to describe something quite different. I am guessing
that he wrote his account prior to Foucault's endowing this word the special
technical sense that he does in the 1977-8 lectures. Because if Veyne had
written "F revolutionizes history" after these lectures he certainly would
have at least made note of his different usage (and most likely would have
simply chosen to call the practices of roman emperors by a different name).
That is ONLY an educated guess on my part, of course. Others, I am sure,
will posses the more detailed knowledge of Veyne and the history of this
essay's publication needed either to substantiate or falsify my attempt to
make sense of this odd discrepancy in usage.
N
On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Chetan Vemuri <aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
> its funny
> i've never found a perfect, birds-eye secondary commentator on Foucault.
> Or perfect is a point of view.
> Each has his or her own approach based on their specialty or theoretical
> paradigm or even axe to grind.
> but this is not a revolutionary idea as it was probably obvious to begin
> with.
>
> I never thought about that aspect of Veyne's misreading of Foucault's
> pastoralism.
> I usually have nothing but praise for his understanding of Foucault's work
> on ethics and the care of the self.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 12:47 PM, Nathaniel Roberts <npr4@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> >wrote:
>
> > This is interesting. Because I seem to remember that the way Veyne
> > describes "pastoral" power in this essay is totally at odds with
> Foucault's
> > own usage, as developed in the 1977-8 lectures ('Security, Territory,
> > Population') --viz. Veyne ascribes a pastoral logic to the practices of
> > pre-Christian Roman emperors, whereas for Foucault pastoralism was
> > precisely
> > absent in the Greek and Roman contexts (he makes a big deal out of this
> in
> > the 1977-8 lectures).
> >
> > So perhaps Veyne published the essay earlier in 1978, before having a
> > chance
> > to take account of the latest developments in F's conceptual terminology.
> >
> > Apart from describing pastoral power in terms totally incompatible with
> > F's,
> > however, I've always thought Veyne's essay was a really great one,
> > especially for helping students to grasp the specificity and brilliance
> of
> > F's method. And yet I am often hesitant to assign it on account of the
> > confusion that could result with respect to their divergent usage of this
> > important term. This difficulty can of course be overcome if one takes
> the
> > time to explain this one point of difficulty to students in advance.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Nate
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Kevin Turner <kevin.turner@xxxxxxxxx
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Fouad, and thanks for the information.
> > >
> > > Actually, looking through the essay again, Veyne references both
> "Society
> > > Must be Defended" and "The History of Sexuality" which make it clear
> that
> > > the text could not have been written in 1971.
> > >
> > > Thanks once again,
> > > Kevin.
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: fkalouche@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Sent: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 04:54:50 -0500
> > > > To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Foucault Revolutionises History
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Kevin,
> > > >
> > > > The discrepancy in dates may be related to the fact that Veyne's
> book:
> > > > Comment on écrit l'histoire: Essai d'épistémologie was initially
> > > > published in 1971 and then republished a few times in new editions
> that
> > > > included "Foucault révolutionne l'histoire." Naissance de la
> > biopolitique
> > > > refers to a 1979 edition of Comment on écrit l'histoire published in
> > > > Seuil's "Points - histoire" series, where "Foucault révolutionne
> > > > l'histoire" is cited on pages 227-230 (see endnote 4 of the lesson of
> > > > January 10, 1979, p. 26). However, in the author's list of
> publications
> > > > ("Du même auteur") at the end of the latest book of Veyne on
> > > > Foucault--Foucault: sa pensée, sa personne, Albin Michel, 2008, only
> > two
> > > > editions are mentioned: the 1971 orginal publication and the 1996
> > edition
> > > > in Seuil's "Points - histoire" series.
> > > >
> > > > Furthermore, in his new book menioned above, Veyne refers to a 1978
> > date
> > > > for his essay on Foucault ("Foucault révolutionne l'histoire"). See
> > page
> > > > 28, footnote 2.
> > > >
> > > > I do not know if this helps.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > >
> > > > Fouad Kalouche
> > > >
> > > >> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 00:43:10 -0800> From: kevin.turner@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To:
> > > >> foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [Foucault-L] Foucault
> > Revolutionises
> > > >> History> > Can anybody tell me when this essay by Paul Veyne was
> > > >> originally written?> > In a text I'm reading it states that it was
> > > >> written in 1978. In the text itself it also says 1978. But on the
> > > >> copyright page in A. I. Davidson's edited collection (Foucault and
> his
> > > >> Interlocutors), it states that it was written in 1971.> > Regards,>
> > > >> Kevin.> > _______________________________________________>
> Foucault-L
> > > >> mailing list
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills.
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Foucault-L mailing list
> > >
> > > ____________________________________________________________
> > > Receive Notifications of Incoming Messages
> > > Easily monitor multiple email accounts & access them with a click.
> > > Visit http://www.inbox.com/notifier and check it out!
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Foucault-L mailing list
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Nathaniel Roberts
> > Adjunct Assistant Professor
> > Department of Anthropology
> > Columbia University
> > -and-
> > Part Time Faculty Member
> > Department of Anthropology
> > The New School for Social Research
> > _______________________________________________
> > Foucault-L mailing list
>
>
>
>
> --
> Chetan Vemuri
> West Des Moines, IA
> aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
> (515)-418-2771
> "You say you want a Revolution! Well you know, we all want to change the
> world"
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
>
--
Nathaniel Roberts
Adjunct Assistant Professor
Department of Anthropology
Columbia University
-and-
Part Time Faculty Member
Department of Anthropology
The New School for Social Research