On Tue, 25 Mar 1997, malgosia askanas wrote:
> John wrote, about Nietzsche's view of the aesthetic:
>
> > Here's the world: it's ugly, it's base,
> > it's hope-less. This is the point of the story of Silenus in Section 3 of
> > _Birth of Tragedy_. Midas hunts and finally captures Silenus and forces
> > him to answer the question: "What is best and most desirable of all things
> > for man?" Silenus answers: "The best and most desirable thing of all for
> > man is not to be." Midas asks for a second-best option. Silenus answers:
> > "To die soon." (See _BT_, Section 3, trans. Kaufmann, p. 42.)
>
> > That's the truth, but, as Nicholson so aptly phrased it (in "A Few Good
> > Men") "we can't handle the truth." So we apply some rouge (life after
> > death!), some lipstick (sinners can be saved!), and so on. So tarting up
> > doesn't seem to be a corruption of the aesthetic sense to me. It seems
> > like this basic activity we engage in to adorn the world with as many
> > concealing flowing drapes and as many air fresheners as we can lay our
> > hands on.
>
> So I've now actually read "The Birth of Tragedy", which is something of an
> improvement. It seems to me that your account is not quite accurate.
> I would not treat the story of Silenus as an account of "the real world" that
> gets contrasted with a rouged world which we furnish ourselves through art.
> Rather, I would say that the story itself is a direct example of an artistic
> act, namely of "tragic myth". "[...] Tragic myth has convinced us that
> that even the ugly and discordant are merely an aesthetic game which the
> will, in its utter exuberance, plays with itself. [...] The delight created
> by tragic myth has the same origin as the delight dissonance in music creates.
> That primal Dionysiac delight, experienced even in the presence of pain,
> is the source common to both music and tragic myth." [p.143 of the Golffing
> translation, Doubleday Anchor].
I admit, I don't see it the way you do. N describes the story of Midas and
Silenus as a piece of "Greek folk wisdom" (_BoT_, Vintage, Sec. 3, p. 42).
Through it, "the Greek knew and felt the terror and horror of existence.
That he might endure this terror at all, he had to interpose between
himself and life the radiant dream-birth of the Olympians" (Ibid). What we
interpose between ourselves and life is those drapes and air fresheners.
>
> "It is vain to try to deduce the tragic spirit from the commonly accepted
> categories of art: illusion and beauty. Music alone allows us to understand
> the delight felt at the annihilation of the individual. Each single instance
> of such annihilation will clarify for us the abiding phenomenon of Dionysiac
> art, which expresses the omnipotent will behind individuation, eternal life
> continuing beyond all appearance and in spite of destruction." [p. 101]
> I think that this is a far cry from flowing drapes and air fresheners.
>
> I was struck, in reading BoT, how very connected to it "Preface to
> Transgression" seems; there is almost a feeling of an umbilical cord running
> between them.
This I heartily agree with. In general, I have to thank you and others who
have pushed for it for recommending this essay; it is much deeper and
richer than I originally took it to be.
>
> And how does one relate to the framework of BoT the Baudelairian "dandyism",
> the idea of constructing oneself as a work of art?
>
>
> -m
>
I want to answer that, but it's very big. Must think!
--John
> John wrote, about Nietzsche's view of the aesthetic:
>
> > Here's the world: it's ugly, it's base,
> > it's hope-less. This is the point of the story of Silenus in Section 3 of
> > _Birth of Tragedy_. Midas hunts and finally captures Silenus and forces
> > him to answer the question: "What is best and most desirable of all things
> > for man?" Silenus answers: "The best and most desirable thing of all for
> > man is not to be." Midas asks for a second-best option. Silenus answers:
> > "To die soon." (See _BT_, Section 3, trans. Kaufmann, p. 42.)
>
> > That's the truth, but, as Nicholson so aptly phrased it (in "A Few Good
> > Men") "we can't handle the truth." So we apply some rouge (life after
> > death!), some lipstick (sinners can be saved!), and so on. So tarting up
> > doesn't seem to be a corruption of the aesthetic sense to me. It seems
> > like this basic activity we engage in to adorn the world with as many
> > concealing flowing drapes and as many air fresheners as we can lay our
> > hands on.
>
> So I've now actually read "The Birth of Tragedy", which is something of an
> improvement. It seems to me that your account is not quite accurate.
> I would not treat the story of Silenus as an account of "the real world" that
> gets contrasted with a rouged world which we furnish ourselves through art.
> Rather, I would say that the story itself is a direct example of an artistic
> act, namely of "tragic myth". "[...] Tragic myth has convinced us that
> that even the ugly and discordant are merely an aesthetic game which the
> will, in its utter exuberance, plays with itself. [...] The delight created
> by tragic myth has the same origin as the delight dissonance in music creates.
> That primal Dionysiac delight, experienced even in the presence of pain,
> is the source common to both music and tragic myth." [p.143 of the Golffing
> translation, Doubleday Anchor].
I admit, I don't see it the way you do. N describes the story of Midas and
Silenus as a piece of "Greek folk wisdom" (_BoT_, Vintage, Sec. 3, p. 42).
Through it, "the Greek knew and felt the terror and horror of existence.
That he might endure this terror at all, he had to interpose between
himself and life the radiant dream-birth of the Olympians" (Ibid). What we
interpose between ourselves and life is those drapes and air fresheners.
>
> "It is vain to try to deduce the tragic spirit from the commonly accepted
> categories of art: illusion and beauty. Music alone allows us to understand
> the delight felt at the annihilation of the individual. Each single instance
> of such annihilation will clarify for us the abiding phenomenon of Dionysiac
> art, which expresses the omnipotent will behind individuation, eternal life
> continuing beyond all appearance and in spite of destruction." [p. 101]
> I think that this is a far cry from flowing drapes and air fresheners.
>
> I was struck, in reading BoT, how very connected to it "Preface to
> Transgression" seems; there is almost a feeling of an umbilical cord running
> between them.
This I heartily agree with. In general, I have to thank you and others who
have pushed for it for recommending this essay; it is much deeper and
richer than I originally took it to be.
>
> And how does one relate to the framework of BoT the Baudelairian "dandyism",
> the idea of constructing oneself as a work of art?
>
>
> -m
>
I want to answer that, but it's very big. Must think!
--John