on 1/10/01 4:08 AM, Erik Hoogcarspel at jehms@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> I wonder if Foucault can help us understand what's going on. Are these
> tortures instruments of discipline or is this maybe a kind of class
> struggle, or do the gards think it's their duty to make life hell for
> the prisoners?
Why not all of them? To me the question seems to be more a matter of how
these things fit together to create a structure that not only results in
violence but is itself violent. Is not the very act of imprisonment a type
of violence?
> Does the panopticon entry the Turkish prison and are the prisoners
> afraid to loose the safeness of being in a group?
I don't know enough about Turkish prisons. I know that this is a major
discussion in terms of US prisons and "gang violence" within the prison -
that it's a form of coalition/resistance to the guards and the institution.
> This safeness clearly
> doesn't prevetn torture. Or maybe they're just resisting the system no
> matter what?
How can they avoid? "Wherever there is power there is resistance." This is
why I feel that a performative reading of the prisons is important - it
allows us to understand where this resistance is and how the resistance of
the prisoners creates resistance of the prisoners and vice versa.
> Tho governement
> seems to want a western discipline machine, but in this kind of prison
> there cannot be torture, accordign to Foucault.
Do you really think Foucault says this? My reading was that he feels that
prisons are a response to torture and never truly left the idea behind
(while transforming the methods and the episteme).
> So in the long run
> private cells could be seen as a step towards abolishing torture.
That seems to be what Discipline and Punish is about.
> I've
> not seen any intelligent analyses of the situation up to now. The only
> thin that's in the media are these kind of torture stories, which are
> sad enough, but they're not good arguments. There used to be some
> Turkish Foucault readers ion the list. Have gone asleep?
Perhaps someone could point us to resources that might shed more light on
the situation for those of us who aren't familiar?
---
Asher Haig ahaig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Dartmouth 2004
> I wonder if Foucault can help us understand what's going on. Are these
> tortures instruments of discipline or is this maybe a kind of class
> struggle, or do the gards think it's their duty to make life hell for
> the prisoners?
Why not all of them? To me the question seems to be more a matter of how
these things fit together to create a structure that not only results in
violence but is itself violent. Is not the very act of imprisonment a type
of violence?
> Does the panopticon entry the Turkish prison and are the prisoners
> afraid to loose the safeness of being in a group?
I don't know enough about Turkish prisons. I know that this is a major
discussion in terms of US prisons and "gang violence" within the prison -
that it's a form of coalition/resistance to the guards and the institution.
> This safeness clearly
> doesn't prevetn torture. Or maybe they're just resisting the system no
> matter what?
How can they avoid? "Wherever there is power there is resistance." This is
why I feel that a performative reading of the prisons is important - it
allows us to understand where this resistance is and how the resistance of
the prisoners creates resistance of the prisoners and vice versa.
> Tho governement
> seems to want a western discipline machine, but in this kind of prison
> there cannot be torture, accordign to Foucault.
Do you really think Foucault says this? My reading was that he feels that
prisons are a response to torture and never truly left the idea behind
(while transforming the methods and the episteme).
> So in the long run
> private cells could be seen as a step towards abolishing torture.
That seems to be what Discipline and Punish is about.
> I've
> not seen any intelligent analyses of the situation up to now. The only
> thin that's in the media are these kind of torture stories, which are
> sad enough, but they're not good arguments. There used to be some
> Turkish Foucault readers ion the list. Have gone asleep?
Perhaps someone could point us to resources that might shed more light on
the situation for those of us who aren't familiar?
---
Asher Haig ahaig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Dartmouth 2004