>
>
>
> Human beings exist prior to discourse
>and culture (whatever Foucault may believe). There was a deeper, inner
>discontent (the book CATCHER IN THE RYE conveys some of the feeling-tone). There was a
>depth lacking in American life. Everything was presented as if being so
>clear, simple and pure. There were many repressed impulses, desires and thoughts
>lurking below the surface. There was a longing for something deeper.
>
>
>
Isn't this the kind of essentialism that Foucault specifically rejected?
And the kind of 'truth claim' that he specifically problematised?
Richard, are you seriously making an assertion that you have a
privileged grasp on the 'one true reality' ('whatever Foucault may have
believed')?
I'm no Foucault expert, but this comment seems to be more of an
avoidance of engaging with Foucault's work than any development of a
discussion that is attempting to engage with his work. How do you
reconcile Foucault's ironic discussion of the 'repressive hypothesis'
with your comment about the 'many repressed impulses, desires and
thoughts'? I'm interested to know.
best wishes
Jill
PsycheCulture@xxxxxx wrote:
>In a message dated 7/1/03 10:01:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>radicalchic68@xxxxxxxxx writes:
>
>
>>the '60's were an escalating trajectory of a
>>counter-culture revolution that was more underground
>>in the 1950's but nonetheless existed as a reaction
>>against the prevailing sterile 'leave-it-to-beaver'
>>status quo of the post WWII years.
>>
>>
>
> This is quite accurate. It happened way before "Viet Nam." It was not
>a political revolution, but a cultural revolution. To say it was a reaction to
>"power" is a vast oversimplification. Human beings exist prior to discourse
>and culture (whatever Foucault may believe). There was a deeper, inner
>discontent (the book CATCHER IN THE RYE conveys some of the feeling-tone). There was a
>depth lacking in American life. Everything was presented as if being so
>clear, simple and pure. There were many repressed impulses, desires and thoughts
>lurking below the surface. There was a longing for something deeper.
>
> the primary > countercultures that were thriving prior to the
>
>
>>sixties were rock and roll (on a large scale)
>>
>>
>
> Rock 'n' roll wasn't yet a "culture" in the Fifties. It was mostly
>music (dancing). It wasn't like Little Richard or Jerry Lee Lewis were trying to
>"say something." They were expressing themselves. What they expressed did
>eventually have ramifications.
>
> and the> beat generation(on a smaller and probably more potent
>
>
>>scale).
>>
>>
>
> Yes, the hippie revolution descended from the beatniks; there was a
>direct lineage. Alan Ginsberg was the crucial figure.
>
> i should imagine that it possibly had at
>
>
>>least a little to do with figures like bob dylan
>>cohorting with beat writers--some of whom were huge
>>fans of mysticism and marijuana/drug use-- and then
>>bringing that culture to a group of young people via
>>popular music (although, granted dylan's music didn't
>>receive quite the mass audience in those early years
>>that it later did)
>>
>>
>
> Bob Dylan was hugely influential right from the beginning. It was not
>exactly that he was "bringing something," as if he was separate from what was
>already occurring. He grew out of and articulated what was coming into being.
>Others were beginning to have different kinds of ideas or thoughts. He picked
>upon and crystallized a new mode of being or consciousness.
>
> and, if you want to continue the > lineage, i believe that the beat writers
>
>
>>were largely inspired by jazz culture in which it is well known
>>drug use, particularly marijuana, was prevalent.
>>
>>
>
> Yes, the jazz culture was antecedent to everything that later
>occurred. At one point this was the "only game in town," Charley Parker (yeh), etc.
>Jack Kerouac was influenced by jazz, as were the beatniks, and gradually a
>certain impulse spread and expanded. It is the expansion of this impulse that
>requires psychological explanation. There was a certain "dominant discourse" (which
>doesn't tell you that much, since we are speaking about the entire field
>forcee of American society), however there also was a LONGING for something else,
>something more. The longing is not explained by "discourse."
>
>
>
>>eventually, of course, the vietnam war rallied many
>>people into the counterculture
>>
>>
>
> Yes, this came toward the end of the beginning of the cultural
>revolution.
>
>but i think the seeds > were planted long before--even by white boys who
>
>
>>shook
>>their hips and made 'immoral' music.
>>
>>
>
> Correct once again. The "Elvis impulse" was the source of a great deal
>that was to follow. I discussed this in a talk I gave at the INTERNATIONAL
>CONFERENCE ON ELVIS PRESLEY. You can read a bit about this at:
>
>http://eserver.org/bs/39/mosher.html
>
> Britney Spears continues the "discourse" that was established by
>Elvis Presley: The idea that gyrating one's hips is the key toward
>liberation.
>
>With regards,
>
>Richard K.
>
>Richard A. Koenigsberg, Ph. D.
>Library of Social Science
>
>
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>
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>
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>
>
>
>
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>
>
> Human beings exist prior to discourse
>and culture (whatever Foucault may believe). There was a deeper, inner
>discontent (the book CATCHER IN THE RYE conveys some of the feeling-tone). There was a
>depth lacking in American life. Everything was presented as if being so
>clear, simple and pure. There were many repressed impulses, desires and thoughts
>lurking below the surface. There was a longing for something deeper.
>
>
>
Isn't this the kind of essentialism that Foucault specifically rejected?
And the kind of 'truth claim' that he specifically problematised?
Richard, are you seriously making an assertion that you have a
privileged grasp on the 'one true reality' ('whatever Foucault may have
believed')?
I'm no Foucault expert, but this comment seems to be more of an
avoidance of engaging with Foucault's work than any development of a
discussion that is attempting to engage with his work. How do you
reconcile Foucault's ironic discussion of the 'repressive hypothesis'
with your comment about the 'many repressed impulses, desires and
thoughts'? I'm interested to know.
best wishes
Jill
PsycheCulture@xxxxxx wrote:
>In a message dated 7/1/03 10:01:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>radicalchic68@xxxxxxxxx writes:
>
>
>>the '60's were an escalating trajectory of a
>>counter-culture revolution that was more underground
>>in the 1950's but nonetheless existed as a reaction
>>against the prevailing sterile 'leave-it-to-beaver'
>>status quo of the post WWII years.
>>
>>
>
> This is quite accurate. It happened way before "Viet Nam." It was not
>a political revolution, but a cultural revolution. To say it was a reaction to
>"power" is a vast oversimplification. Human beings exist prior to discourse
>and culture (whatever Foucault may believe). There was a deeper, inner
>discontent (the book CATCHER IN THE RYE conveys some of the feeling-tone). There was a
>depth lacking in American life. Everything was presented as if being so
>clear, simple and pure. There were many repressed impulses, desires and thoughts
>lurking below the surface. There was a longing for something deeper.
>
> the primary > countercultures that were thriving prior to the
>
>
>>sixties were rock and roll (on a large scale)
>>
>>
>
> Rock 'n' roll wasn't yet a "culture" in the Fifties. It was mostly
>music (dancing). It wasn't like Little Richard or Jerry Lee Lewis were trying to
>"say something." They were expressing themselves. What they expressed did
>eventually have ramifications.
>
> and the> beat generation(on a smaller and probably more potent
>
>
>>scale).
>>
>>
>
> Yes, the hippie revolution descended from the beatniks; there was a
>direct lineage. Alan Ginsberg was the crucial figure.
>
> i should imagine that it possibly had at
>
>
>>least a little to do with figures like bob dylan
>>cohorting with beat writers--some of whom were huge
>>fans of mysticism and marijuana/drug use-- and then
>>bringing that culture to a group of young people via
>>popular music (although, granted dylan's music didn't
>>receive quite the mass audience in those early years
>>that it later did)
>>
>>
>
> Bob Dylan was hugely influential right from the beginning. It was not
>exactly that he was "bringing something," as if he was separate from what was
>already occurring. He grew out of and articulated what was coming into being.
>Others were beginning to have different kinds of ideas or thoughts. He picked
>upon and crystallized a new mode of being or consciousness.
>
> and, if you want to continue the > lineage, i believe that the beat writers
>
>
>>were largely inspired by jazz culture in which it is well known
>>drug use, particularly marijuana, was prevalent.
>>
>>
>
> Yes, the jazz culture was antecedent to everything that later
>occurred. At one point this was the "only game in town," Charley Parker (yeh), etc.
>Jack Kerouac was influenced by jazz, as were the beatniks, and gradually a
>certain impulse spread and expanded. It is the expansion of this impulse that
>requires psychological explanation. There was a certain "dominant discourse" (which
>doesn't tell you that much, since we are speaking about the entire field
>forcee of American society), however there also was a LONGING for something else,
>something more. The longing is not explained by "discourse."
>
>
>
>>eventually, of course, the vietnam war rallied many
>>people into the counterculture
>>
>>
>
> Yes, this came toward the end of the beginning of the cultural
>revolution.
>
>but i think the seeds > were planted long before--even by white boys who
>
>
>>shook
>>their hips and made 'immoral' music.
>>
>>
>
> Correct once again. The "Elvis impulse" was the source of a great deal
>that was to follow. I discussed this in a talk I gave at the INTERNATIONAL
>CONFERENCE ON ELVIS PRESLEY. You can read a bit about this at:
>
>http://eserver.org/bs/39/mosher.html
>
> Britney Spears continues the "discourse" that was established by
>Elvis Presley: The idea that gyrating one's hips is the key toward
>liberation.
>
>With regards,
>
>Richard K.
>
>Richard A. Koenigsberg, Ph. D.
>Library of Social Science
>
>
>--- StripMime Warning -- MIME attachments removed ---
>This message may have contained attachments which were removed.
>
>Sorry, we do not allow attachments on this list.
>
>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
>multipart/alternative
> text/plain (text body -- kept)
> text/html
>---
>
>
>
>
UTS CRICOS Provider Code: 00099F
DISCLAIMER
========================================================================
This email message and any accompanying attachments may contain
confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, do not
read, use, disseminate, distribute or copy this message or attachments.
If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender
immediately and delete this message. Any views expressed in this message
are those of the individual sender, except where the sender expressly,
and with authority, states them to be the views the University of
Technology Sydney. Before opening any attachments, please check them for
viruses and defects.
========================================================================
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