ok, so far so good...
next question:
is there a correlation here between thinking of relations of force which organise the domain in which they are exercised and the way of thinking, presented in the archaeology, of regularities which regulate themselves?
this is not formulated as eloquently as it could have been but i hope you see what i am getting at.
best,
kevin.
-----Original Message-----
From: princeptiffany@xxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 17:00:57 +0100
To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] question on trans & interpretation
I don't know if my intervention is timely, because it seems that I receive only some messages from the list. Maybe the subject is closed? I didn't get Kevin Turner's first message, but got the second one, from Leon Farnito.The question raised by Kevin Turner turns out to be central for my own research. Anyway, here is my interpretation of the passage (which might interest you just because french is my native language).
I'm pretty sure I can answer Kevin's question relying almost only on the grammatical structure of the sentence : "Par pouvoir, il me semble qu'il faut comprendre d'abord la multiplicité des rapports de force qui sont immanents au domaine où ils s'exercent, et sont constitutifs de leur organisation." Here relations of force ARE immanent to the domain in which they are exercized, AND ARE constitutive of their organization. As to Kevin's first question >> Is this "their" referring to the "relations of force," to the "domain" in which they are exercised, to that "exercise," or to all three? I can answer without any doubt : "Their" refers to "the domain in which they exercize" : relations of forces are constitutive of the domain in which they exercize, i.e. are responsible of the organization of the domain in which they are exercized.
Kevin's second question is far more complicated : >> Stated otherwise, "what is constitutive (relations of force?) and what is being organised (relations of force? The domain? The exercise?)?But it can be answered if we read the passage he quotes in front of this other one, which seems to repeat the same idea : (emphasis added)"que les relations de pouvoir ne sont pas en position d'extériorité à l'égard d'autres types de rapports (processus économiques, rapports de connaissance, relations sexuelles), mais qu'elles leur sont immanentes; elles sont les effets immédiats des partages, inégalités et déséquilibres qui s'y produisent, et elles sont réciproquement les conditions internes de ces différenciations; les relations de pouvoir ne sont pas en positions de superstructure, avec un simple rôle de prohibition ou de reconduction; elles ont, là où elles jouent, un rôle directement producteur." (VS p. 123-124)
or this one, about "les relations de pouvoir" : (emphasis added)"Si, de fait, elles sont intelligibles, ce n'est pas parce qu'elles seraient l'effet, en terme de causalité, d'une instance autre, qui les " expliquerait ", mais, c'est qu'elles sont, de part en part, traversées par un calcul : pas de pouvoir qui s'exerce sans une série de visées et d'objectifs." (VS p. 125).
Relations of forces exercize or are exercized in certain domains (sexuality, knowledge, economical process), this being a fact. The question at stake is the form of this exercize, the form of the relation between sexuality, knowledge, economical process and power. Sexuality, economical relations, knowledge are assumed to function on the basis of certain laws (natural, economical, legal, epistemological laws), a point of view Foucault disagrees on. He states : they follow a certain rationality, "une série de visées et d'objectifs", which make in turn these relations intelligible. The disagregation of the "law-based" explanation in Foucault's philosophy has one major consequence : that power is not exercized on other forms of relations from the outside, but throught them, and thus constitute them in the sense that they give them a certain form of rationality, which can be analyzed. Relations of forces both rely on and constitute sexual relations, knowledge relations or economical relations in so far as the latter follow a certain rationality. To answer now Kevin's question: relations of forces are constitutive of other relations, they are internal unconditionned conditions for them. But they rely at the same time on divisions, inequalities and imbalance which occur ("les partages, inégalités et déséquilibres qui s'y produisent"). These divisions, inequalities and imbalance are not, though, "conditions" of relations of forces (in an metaphysical sense), but "instrument-effects". I think relations of power don't have an "ontological priority" as such, but rather an epistemological one: this is the way we should analyze sexual relations, knowledge relations, economical relations to make the rationalities they are part of intelligible.
To sum up my analysis : it seems that in La volonté de savoir, relation of forces (or the exercize of power) is the level at which sexual relations, knowledge, etc., are intelligible, with two major consequences : organization, rationality, etc., can be predicated only of relations of forces, no matter in which domain they exercize ; this is consequently what one should analyze to have a proper understanding of any domain.
And this is precisely what I disagree with.
Does anyone disagree with my interpretation? Let me know, because it is a major hypothesis in my own research!
Thanks for putting the question at stake,and sorry for the long development, (and at last, sorry for my english, and some mistakes)
Best,
Tiffany PrincepDoctorante contractuelle à l'Université de Paris 1 Panthéon-SorbonnePhiCo/EXeCO (EA 3562)[email protected]
> Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 14:05:05 -0200
> From: leonfarhineto@xxxxxxxxx
> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] question on trans & interpretation
>
> In my opinion:
>
> Immanence implies that power relations are constitutive of their own
> organization (which is constituted by them). The organization as an effect
> of power relations, is not really different from them. In this cause-effect
> way of expression, the organized set of power relations is* “causa sui” *and
> lasts until ist difficult-to-explain self-transformation, named the
> “évènement”.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 6:40 AM, Kevin Turner <kevin.turner@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > In "La volonté de savoir" Foucault states: 'Par pouvoir, il me semble qu'il
> > faut comprendre d'abord la multiplicité des rapports de force qui sont
> > immanents au domaine où ils s'exercent, et sont constitutifs de leur
> > organisation' (VS: 121-122).
> >
> > The published English translation reads: 'It seems to me that power must be
> > understood in the first instance as the multiplicity of force relations
> > immanent in the sphere in which they operate and which constitute their own
> > organization (WK: 92).
> >
> > My more literal translation reads: 'With power, it seems to me that we must
> > first understand the multiplicity of relations of force that are immanent
> > in/to the domain in which they are exercised, and [that] are constitutive
> > of
> > their organisation.'
> >
> > And my question concerns the "their" in the second part of the statement
> > (are constitutive of "their" organisation).
> >
> > Is this "their" referring to the "relations of force," to the "domain" in
> > which they are exercised, to that "exercise," or to all three?
> >
> > Stated otherwise, "what is constitutive (relations of force?) and what is
> > being organised (relations of force? The domain? The exercise?)?"
> >
> > Regards,
> > Kevin.
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on
> > your desktop!
> > Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium [http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium]
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Foucault-L mailing list
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> http://leonfarhineto.blogspot.com/ [http://leonfarhineto.blogspot.com/]
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
_______________________________________________
Foucault-L mailing list
____________________________________________________________
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next question:
is there a correlation here between thinking of relations of force which organise the domain in which they are exercised and the way of thinking, presented in the archaeology, of regularities which regulate themselves?
this is not formulated as eloquently as it could have been but i hope you see what i am getting at.
best,
kevin.
-----Original Message-----
From: princeptiffany@xxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 17:00:57 +0100
To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] question on trans & interpretation
I don't know if my intervention is timely, because it seems that I receive only some messages from the list. Maybe the subject is closed? I didn't get Kevin Turner's first message, but got the second one, from Leon Farnito.The question raised by Kevin Turner turns out to be central for my own research. Anyway, here is my interpretation of the passage (which might interest you just because french is my native language).
I'm pretty sure I can answer Kevin's question relying almost only on the grammatical structure of the sentence : "Par pouvoir, il me semble qu'il faut comprendre d'abord la multiplicité des rapports de force qui sont immanents au domaine où ils s'exercent, et sont constitutifs de leur organisation." Here relations of force ARE immanent to the domain in which they are exercized, AND ARE constitutive of their organization. As to Kevin's first question >> Is this "their" referring to the "relations of force," to the "domain" in which they are exercised, to that "exercise," or to all three? I can answer without any doubt : "Their" refers to "the domain in which they exercize" : relations of forces are constitutive of the domain in which they exercize, i.e. are responsible of the organization of the domain in which they are exercized.
Kevin's second question is far more complicated : >> Stated otherwise, "what is constitutive (relations of force?) and what is being organised (relations of force? The domain? The exercise?)?But it can be answered if we read the passage he quotes in front of this other one, which seems to repeat the same idea : (emphasis added)"que les relations de pouvoir ne sont pas en position d'extériorité à l'égard d'autres types de rapports (processus économiques, rapports de connaissance, relations sexuelles), mais qu'elles leur sont immanentes; elles sont les effets immédiats des partages, inégalités et déséquilibres qui s'y produisent, et elles sont réciproquement les conditions internes de ces différenciations; les relations de pouvoir ne sont pas en positions de superstructure, avec un simple rôle de prohibition ou de reconduction; elles ont, là où elles jouent, un rôle directement producteur." (VS p. 123-124)
or this one, about "les relations de pouvoir" : (emphasis added)"Si, de fait, elles sont intelligibles, ce n'est pas parce qu'elles seraient l'effet, en terme de causalité, d'une instance autre, qui les " expliquerait ", mais, c'est qu'elles sont, de part en part, traversées par un calcul : pas de pouvoir qui s'exerce sans une série de visées et d'objectifs." (VS p. 125).
Relations of forces exercize or are exercized in certain domains (sexuality, knowledge, economical process), this being a fact. The question at stake is the form of this exercize, the form of the relation between sexuality, knowledge, economical process and power. Sexuality, economical relations, knowledge are assumed to function on the basis of certain laws (natural, economical, legal, epistemological laws), a point of view Foucault disagrees on. He states : they follow a certain rationality, "une série de visées et d'objectifs", which make in turn these relations intelligible. The disagregation of the "law-based" explanation in Foucault's philosophy has one major consequence : that power is not exercized on other forms of relations from the outside, but throught them, and thus constitute them in the sense that they give them a certain form of rationality, which can be analyzed. Relations of forces both rely on and constitute sexual relations, knowledge relations or economical relations in so far as the latter follow a certain rationality. To answer now Kevin's question: relations of forces are constitutive of other relations, they are internal unconditionned conditions for them. But they rely at the same time on divisions, inequalities and imbalance which occur ("les partages, inégalités et déséquilibres qui s'y produisent"). These divisions, inequalities and imbalance are not, though, "conditions" of relations of forces (in an metaphysical sense), but "instrument-effects". I think relations of power don't have an "ontological priority" as such, but rather an epistemological one: this is the way we should analyze sexual relations, knowledge relations, economical relations to make the rationalities they are part of intelligible.
To sum up my analysis : it seems that in La volonté de savoir, relation of forces (or the exercize of power) is the level at which sexual relations, knowledge, etc., are intelligible, with two major consequences : organization, rationality, etc., can be predicated only of relations of forces, no matter in which domain they exercize ; this is consequently what one should analyze to have a proper understanding of any domain.
And this is precisely what I disagree with.
Does anyone disagree with my interpretation? Let me know, because it is a major hypothesis in my own research!
Thanks for putting the question at stake,and sorry for the long development, (and at last, sorry for my english, and some mistakes)
Best,
Tiffany PrincepDoctorante contractuelle à l'Université de Paris 1 Panthéon-SorbonnePhiCo/EXeCO (EA 3562)[email protected]
> Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 14:05:05 -0200
> From: leonfarhineto@xxxxxxxxx
> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] question on trans & interpretation
>
> In my opinion:
>
> Immanence implies that power relations are constitutive of their own
> organization (which is constituted by them). The organization as an effect
> of power relations, is not really different from them. In this cause-effect
> way of expression, the organized set of power relations is* “causa sui” *and
> lasts until ist difficult-to-explain self-transformation, named the
> “évènement”.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 6:40 AM, Kevin Turner <kevin.turner@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > In "La volonté de savoir" Foucault states: 'Par pouvoir, il me semble qu'il
> > faut comprendre d'abord la multiplicité des rapports de force qui sont
> > immanents au domaine où ils s'exercent, et sont constitutifs de leur
> > organisation' (VS: 121-122).
> >
> > The published English translation reads: 'It seems to me that power must be
> > understood in the first instance as the multiplicity of force relations
> > immanent in the sphere in which they operate and which constitute their own
> > organization (WK: 92).
> >
> > My more literal translation reads: 'With power, it seems to me that we must
> > first understand the multiplicity of relations of force that are immanent
> > in/to the domain in which they are exercised, and [that] are constitutive
> > of
> > their organisation.'
> >
> > And my question concerns the "their" in the second part of the statement
> > (are constitutive of "their" organisation).
> >
> > Is this "their" referring to the "relations of force," to the "domain" in
> > which they are exercised, to that "exercise," or to all three?
> >
> > Stated otherwise, "what is constitutive (relations of force?) and what is
> > being organised (relations of force? The domain? The exercise?)?"
> >
> > Regards,
> > Kevin.
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on
> > your desktop!
> > Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium [http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium]
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Foucault-L mailing list
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> http://leonfarhineto.blogspot.com/ [http://leonfarhineto.blogspot.com/]
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
_______________________________________________
Foucault-L mailing list
____________________________________________________________
FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop!
Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth