Hey Jivko,
Here is an extract from Rorty's book "Philosophy and Social Hope." pg 61.
--------
What about the Sartrean proposition that 'human beings are what they make
themselves', which I have just put forward as antiessentialist doctrine? Is
that propostion true? Well, it is true in the same way that Peano's axioms
for arithmetic are true. These axioms sum up the implications of the use of
a certain vocabulary, the vocabulary of numbers. But suppose you have no
interest in using that vocabulary. Suppose that you are willing to forgo the
advantages of counting and calculating, and, perhaps, because of a morbid
fear of technology, are willing and eager to speak a language in which no
mention of number 17 occurs. For you, those axioms are not candidates for
truth - they have no relevance to your projects.
So it is for the Sartrean proposition. This proposition sums up a certain
view about what sorts of projects it is best to pursue. If, however, your
own projects are religous or metaphysical, and if you are therefore willing
to forgo the advantages of the kinds of egalitarian politics and Romantic
art whose implications Sarte sums up, Sarte's proposition is not even a
candidate for truth. You may call it false if you like, but the falsity is
not like the falsity of a candidate which has been tested and found wanting.
It is rather a matter of obvious *irrelevance* - obvious inability to be of
use for your purposes.
---------
Can you see the simularity between the situation Rorty outlines and the
clashing of opinions (yours vs others) regarding the use of Foucault when
looking at ethnic conflicts as described?
Jivko have you read Benjamin's "Imagined Communities"?
Perhaps you can enlighten me with regards to the ethics of a particular
ethnic conflict, please?
And let me reiterate that I do not disagree with your politics (well some
parts of what I have read into your posts anyway).
Thanks mate,
Glen.
>From: Jivko Georgiev <jivkox43georgiev@xxxxxxxxx>
>Reply-To: foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To: foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: Re: RE: arabs ana hanums
>Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 12:26:59 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Ofcourse, what else, except threats and revenge a man
>can expect from a arab?!
>--- Tanju SARI <tanjus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > Where is this guy from who is a member of a nation
> > suffered from Turkish
> > tirany?He is a sufferer but cant seem to tolerate
> > the others.So tirany and
> > prejudice is a boomerang..
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Allen Miller <millerpa@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > <foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: 16 Temmuz 2001 Pazartesi 04:01
> > Subject: Re: RE: arabs ana hanums
> >
> >
> > >Tell that to Ho Chi Min.
> > >
> > >
> > >>>> jivkox43georgiev@xxxxxxxxx 07/15/01 15:30 PM
> > >>>
> > >I repeat: the nationalism concern only the western
> > >world. To the rest of the world it is irrelevant.
> > >Michel Foucault knew it is a unimportenant issue,
> > and
> > >he avoided it.
> > >
> > >Zhivko
> > >--- "Hennon, Lisa" <hennon@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > >> I appreciate how Stuart Eldon approached this
> > >> question. I wonder if a way
> > >> to connect Foucault's work in this discussion
> > about
> > >> nationalism is to
> > >> identify some of the discourses that have gone
> > into
> > >> the nationalism
> > >> literature. Much of what I have read has been
> > >> structuralist or humanist
> > >> explanations, ways of reasoning that Foucault was
> > >> avoiding. I am trying to
> > >> use the concept of governmentality to ask what
> > kinds
> > >> of national imaginaries
> > >> have informed U.S. education sciences, so in a
> > way I
> > >> am using Foucault's
> > >> concepts rather than concepts of nationalism, but
> > my
> > >> interests intersect
> > >> with the question of nationalism. Perhaps this
> > >> worsens the understanding.
> > >> I hope not.
> > >>
> > >> Lisa
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Jivko Georgiev
> > >> [mailto:jivkox43georgiev@xxxxxxxxx]
> > >> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 11:31 AM
> > >> To: foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> Subject: RE: arabs ana hanums
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > If you can't see how biopower relates to
> > >> > nationalism, I don't know what to
> > >> > tell you.
> > >> >
> > >> neither do i, sorry. I cant see such thing,
> > >> honestly.
> > >> The nationalism was a question foucault never
> > cared
> > >> about. But my research showed me that "ethnic
> > >> cleansing, nationalism, bla, bla, bla" is on the
> > >> first
> > >> page of every western newspapper and magazin. And
> > i
> > >> say to myself : wow!! whats wrong with these
> > guys?
> > >> Than i figure out a paradox: the world, for which
> > >> the
> > >> national borders doesn exist anymore, and in
> > which
> > >> everyone is nomore of his own race, this world
> > has
> > >> as
> > >> a main issue the nationalism and ethnic cleansing
> > -
> > >> this western world is forcing, through the help
> > of
> > >> the
> > >> weapon, the other world to confest that he, the
> > >> biggest part of the world, is a Nazi and he is
> > doing
> > >> the ethnic cleansing, when in fact most of the
> > world
> > >> doesnt know what that means. Isnt that crazy?
> > >>
> > >> Assertion of rights and authorship? How
> > Foucauldian
> > >> > is this?
> > >> How?
> > >>
> > >> Regards!
> > >> Jivko
> > >> --- newidder <N.E.Widder@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > >> > >===== Original Message From
> > >> > foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx =====
> > >> > >Calm down.
> > >> >
> > >> > Some of us are calm when writing this.
> > >> >
> > >> > >Let me most of all say, that Michel Foucault
> > has
> > >> > >never, absolutely never dealed with any
> > questions
> > >> > of
> > >> > >nation, nationalism and so on ,these were
> > never
> > >> > among
> > >> > >his problems. never.
> > >> >
> > >> > >I am of a nationality, which has suffered for
> > 500
> > >> > >years under the turkish tirany, so i have the
> > >> right
> > >> > to
> > >> > >say whatever i want about the arabs. they are
> > >> > always a
> > >> > >trouble.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > >"... Goodness,
> > >> >
> > >> > Nathan
> > >> >
> > >> > Dr. Nathan Widder
> > >> > Lecturer in Political Theory
> > >> > University of Exeter
> > >> > Department of Politics
> > >> > Amory Building
> > >> > Rennes Drive
> > >> > Exeter EX4 4RJ
> > >> > United Kingdom
> > >> > Tel: +44 (0)1392 263 183
> > >> > Fax: +44 (0)1392 263 305
> > >> >
> > http://www.ex.ac.uk/shipss/politics/staff/widder/
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > __________________________________________________
> > >> Do You Yahoo!?
> > >> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> > >> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > >Do You Yahoo!?
> > >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> > >http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Here is an extract from Rorty's book "Philosophy and Social Hope." pg 61.
--------
What about the Sartrean proposition that 'human beings are what they make
themselves', which I have just put forward as antiessentialist doctrine? Is
that propostion true? Well, it is true in the same way that Peano's axioms
for arithmetic are true. These axioms sum up the implications of the use of
a certain vocabulary, the vocabulary of numbers. But suppose you have no
interest in using that vocabulary. Suppose that you are willing to forgo the
advantages of counting and calculating, and, perhaps, because of a morbid
fear of technology, are willing and eager to speak a language in which no
mention of number 17 occurs. For you, those axioms are not candidates for
truth - they have no relevance to your projects.
So it is for the Sartrean proposition. This proposition sums up a certain
view about what sorts of projects it is best to pursue. If, however, your
own projects are religous or metaphysical, and if you are therefore willing
to forgo the advantages of the kinds of egalitarian politics and Romantic
art whose implications Sarte sums up, Sarte's proposition is not even a
candidate for truth. You may call it false if you like, but the falsity is
not like the falsity of a candidate which has been tested and found wanting.
It is rather a matter of obvious *irrelevance* - obvious inability to be of
use for your purposes.
---------
Can you see the simularity between the situation Rorty outlines and the
clashing of opinions (yours vs others) regarding the use of Foucault when
looking at ethnic conflicts as described?
Jivko have you read Benjamin's "Imagined Communities"?
Perhaps you can enlighten me with regards to the ethics of a particular
ethnic conflict, please?
And let me reiterate that I do not disagree with your politics (well some
parts of what I have read into your posts anyway).
Thanks mate,
Glen.
>From: Jivko Georgiev <jivkox43georgiev@xxxxxxxxx>
>Reply-To: foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To: foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: Re: RE: arabs ana hanums
>Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 12:26:59 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Ofcourse, what else, except threats and revenge a man
>can expect from a arab?!
>--- Tanju SARI <tanjus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > Where is this guy from who is a member of a nation
> > suffered from Turkish
> > tirany?He is a sufferer but cant seem to tolerate
> > the others.So tirany and
> > prejudice is a boomerang..
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Allen Miller <millerpa@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > <foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: 16 Temmuz 2001 Pazartesi 04:01
> > Subject: Re: RE: arabs ana hanums
> >
> >
> > >Tell that to Ho Chi Min.
> > >
> > >
> > >>>> jivkox43georgiev@xxxxxxxxx 07/15/01 15:30 PM
> > >>>
> > >I repeat: the nationalism concern only the western
> > >world. To the rest of the world it is irrelevant.
> > >Michel Foucault knew it is a unimportenant issue,
> > and
> > >he avoided it.
> > >
> > >Zhivko
> > >--- "Hennon, Lisa" <hennon@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > >> I appreciate how Stuart Eldon approached this
> > >> question. I wonder if a way
> > >> to connect Foucault's work in this discussion
> > about
> > >> nationalism is to
> > >> identify some of the discourses that have gone
> > into
> > >> the nationalism
> > >> literature. Much of what I have read has been
> > >> structuralist or humanist
> > >> explanations, ways of reasoning that Foucault was
> > >> avoiding. I am trying to
> > >> use the concept of governmentality to ask what
> > kinds
> > >> of national imaginaries
> > >> have informed U.S. education sciences, so in a
> > way I
> > >> am using Foucault's
> > >> concepts rather than concepts of nationalism, but
> > my
> > >> interests intersect
> > >> with the question of nationalism. Perhaps this
> > >> worsens the understanding.
> > >> I hope not.
> > >>
> > >> Lisa
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Jivko Georgiev
> > >> [mailto:jivkox43georgiev@xxxxxxxxx]
> > >> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 11:31 AM
> > >> To: foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> Subject: RE: arabs ana hanums
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > If you can't see how biopower relates to
> > >> > nationalism, I don't know what to
> > >> > tell you.
> > >> >
> > >> neither do i, sorry. I cant see such thing,
> > >> honestly.
> > >> The nationalism was a question foucault never
> > cared
> > >> about. But my research showed me that "ethnic
> > >> cleansing, nationalism, bla, bla, bla" is on the
> > >> first
> > >> page of every western newspapper and magazin. And
> > i
> > >> say to myself : wow!! whats wrong with these
> > guys?
> > >> Than i figure out a paradox: the world, for which
> > >> the
> > >> national borders doesn exist anymore, and in
> > which
> > >> everyone is nomore of his own race, this world
> > has
> > >> as
> > >> a main issue the nationalism and ethnic cleansing
> > -
> > >> this western world is forcing, through the help
> > of
> > >> the
> > >> weapon, the other world to confest that he, the
> > >> biggest part of the world, is a Nazi and he is
> > doing
> > >> the ethnic cleansing, when in fact most of the
> > world
> > >> doesnt know what that means. Isnt that crazy?
> > >>
> > >> Assertion of rights and authorship? How
> > Foucauldian
> > >> > is this?
> > >> How?
> > >>
> > >> Regards!
> > >> Jivko
> > >> --- newidder <N.E.Widder@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > >> > >===== Original Message From
> > >> > foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx =====
> > >> > >Calm down.
> > >> >
> > >> > Some of us are calm when writing this.
> > >> >
> > >> > >Let me most of all say, that Michel Foucault
> > has
> > >> > >never, absolutely never dealed with any
> > questions
> > >> > of
> > >> > >nation, nationalism and so on ,these were
> > never
> > >> > among
> > >> > >his problems. never.
> > >> >
> > >> > >I am of a nationality, which has suffered for
> > 500
> > >> > >years under the turkish tirany, so i have the
> > >> right
> > >> > to
> > >> > >say whatever i want about the arabs. they are
> > >> > always a
> > >> > >trouble.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > >"... Goodness,
> > >> >
> > >> > Nathan
> > >> >
> > >> > Dr. Nathan Widder
> > >> > Lecturer in Political Theory
> > >> > University of Exeter
> > >> > Department of Politics
> > >> > Amory Building
> > >> > Rennes Drive
> > >> > Exeter EX4 4RJ
> > >> > United Kingdom
> > >> > Tel: +44 (0)1392 263 183
> > >> > Fax: +44 (0)1392 263 305
> > >> >
> > http://www.ex.ac.uk/shipss/politics/staff/widder/
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > __________________________________________________
> > >> Do You Yahoo!?
> > >> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> > >> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > >Do You Yahoo!?
> > >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> > >http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.