doesn't the title of the book (also) refer to the two different regimes by which men have attempted to govern the conduct of other men, as this pertains to criminality, discussed in the book? thus, not so much "to discipline and punish" at one and the same time but, rather, discipline on the one hand, and punishment on the other: discipine (Part Three) and punishemnt (Part Two).
just a thought,
Kevin.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shumway@xxxxxxx
> Sent: Fri, 08 May 2009 11:17:46 -0400
> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Surveiller Et Punir translation
>
> The title refers to an imperative to "discipline and punish" attributed
> to the society(ies) the book discusses.
>
> Tim McNamara wrote:
>> The form of the imperative and the form of the bare infinitive (without
>> 'to') are identical in English - and identical to most present tense
>> forms
>> are the same, with the exception of third person singular. So it's a
>> question of interpretation. Given the infinitives in the original
>> French, I
>> think infinitives are the most parsimonious solution in the English. The
>> imperative doesn't quite make sense here, does it? He's not enjoining us
>> to
>> discipline and punish...
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/5/09 12:52 AM, "ari@xxxxxxxx" <ari@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I interpret the verbs as being in the imperative tense.
>>>
>>>
>>>> The verbs in 'Discipline and Punish' are both infinitives, not present
>>>> tense
>>>> verbs. English has two infinitive forms, with and without 'to'; words
>>>> like
>>>> 'can', 'must', etc require the bare infinitive as it is called,
>>>> otherwise
>>>> the 'infinitive without 'to''. So from the grammatical point of view
>>>> we
>>>> could have had 'Survey and Punish', though of course there are
>>>> objections
>>>> to
>>>> 'survey' on other grounds, as various people have already pointed out.
>>>> Tim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 8/5/09 11:33 PM, "David Shumway" <shumway@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The English translation is DISCIPLINE AND PUNISH, not "punishment."
>>>>> Both terms are verbs, but not infinitives as are those in the French
>>>>> title. There is no exact equivalent to "Surveiller" in English; it
>>>>> does
>>>>> not mean surveillance in the usual sense of that word in English.
>>>>> Moreover a title that used the exact cognates, "To survey and to
>>>>> punish," would neither be clear nor catchy. Thus the choice of
>>>>> present
>>>>> tense verbs, for which again, "survey" does not work. Finally, one
>>>>> could
>>>>> argue that the English title actually better reflects the focus of
>>>>> the
>>>>> book because "discipline" is a more important concept there than is
>>>>> surveillance.
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>> Tamir Sorek wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does anyone can help me to solve the following puzzle: Why did
>>>>>> Michel
>>>>>> Foucault ask to translate the title of his book "Surveiller Et
>>>>>> Punir"
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> "Discipline and Punishment" in English, instead of "Surveillance and
>>>>>> Punishment"? Did he think that his French title was misunderstood?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you in advance for your help,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tamir Sorek
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Professor Tim McNamara
>>>> Discipline Chair, Linguistics and Applied Linguistics
>>>> School of Languages and Linguistics
>>>> The University of Melbourne
>>>> Victoria 3010
>>>> Australia
>>>> Tel (+ 61 3) 8344 4207
>>>> Fax (+ 61 3) 8344 8990
>>>> Web:
>>>> www.linguistics.unimelb.edu.au/about/staff/profiles/mcnamara/index.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Foucault-L mailing list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Foucault-L mailing list
>>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> David R. Shumway
> Professor of English, and Literary and Cultural Studies
> Director, the Humanities Center at Carnegie Mellon
>
> Department of English
> Carnegie Mellon University
> 5000 Forbes Ave.
> Pittsburgh, PA 15213
>
> 412-268-7176
> 412-268-7989 (fax)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
just a thought,
Kevin.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shumway@xxxxxxx
> Sent: Fri, 08 May 2009 11:17:46 -0400
> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Surveiller Et Punir translation
>
> The title refers to an imperative to "discipline and punish" attributed
> to the society(ies) the book discusses.
>
> Tim McNamara wrote:
>> The form of the imperative and the form of the bare infinitive (without
>> 'to') are identical in English - and identical to most present tense
>> forms
>> are the same, with the exception of third person singular. So it's a
>> question of interpretation. Given the infinitives in the original
>> French, I
>> think infinitives are the most parsimonious solution in the English. The
>> imperative doesn't quite make sense here, does it? He's not enjoining us
>> to
>> discipline and punish...
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/5/09 12:52 AM, "ari@xxxxxxxx" <ari@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I interpret the verbs as being in the imperative tense.
>>>
>>>
>>>> The verbs in 'Discipline and Punish' are both infinitives, not present
>>>> tense
>>>> verbs. English has two infinitive forms, with and without 'to'; words
>>>> like
>>>> 'can', 'must', etc require the bare infinitive as it is called,
>>>> otherwise
>>>> the 'infinitive without 'to''. So from the grammatical point of view
>>>> we
>>>> could have had 'Survey and Punish', though of course there are
>>>> objections
>>>> to
>>>> 'survey' on other grounds, as various people have already pointed out.
>>>> Tim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 8/5/09 11:33 PM, "David Shumway" <shumway@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The English translation is DISCIPLINE AND PUNISH, not "punishment."
>>>>> Both terms are verbs, but not infinitives as are those in the French
>>>>> title. There is no exact equivalent to "Surveiller" in English; it
>>>>> does
>>>>> not mean surveillance in the usual sense of that word in English.
>>>>> Moreover a title that used the exact cognates, "To survey and to
>>>>> punish," would neither be clear nor catchy. Thus the choice of
>>>>> present
>>>>> tense verbs, for which again, "survey" does not work. Finally, one
>>>>> could
>>>>> argue that the English title actually better reflects the focus of
>>>>> the
>>>>> book because "discipline" is a more important concept there than is
>>>>> surveillance.
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>> Tamir Sorek wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does anyone can help me to solve the following puzzle: Why did
>>>>>> Michel
>>>>>> Foucault ask to translate the title of his book "Surveiller Et
>>>>>> Punir"
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> "Discipline and Punishment" in English, instead of "Surveillance and
>>>>>> Punishment"? Did he think that his French title was misunderstood?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you in advance for your help,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tamir Sorek
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Professor Tim McNamara
>>>> Discipline Chair, Linguistics and Applied Linguistics
>>>> School of Languages and Linguistics
>>>> The University of Melbourne
>>>> Victoria 3010
>>>> Australia
>>>> Tel (+ 61 3) 8344 4207
>>>> Fax (+ 61 3) 8344 8990
>>>> Web:
>>>> www.linguistics.unimelb.edu.au/about/staff/profiles/mcnamara/index.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Foucault-L mailing list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Foucault-L mailing list
>>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> David R. Shumway
> Professor of English, and Literary and Cultural Studies
> Director, the Humanities Center at Carnegie Mellon
>
> Department of English
> Carnegie Mellon University
> 5000 Forbes Ave.
> Pittsburgh, PA 15213
>
> 412-268-7176
> 412-268-7989 (fax)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list