Other examples of the Imperative/Infinitive complexity are:
Margeurite Duras, 'Detruire, dit-elle' - which is infinitive but is
translated as 'Destroy, she said'.
and, of course:
Baudrillard, 'Oublier Foucault', also infinitive, also translated in
imperative 'Forget Foucault'.
I don't think these are mis-translations. It's just that in French, at least
in titles, an infinitive is often used with, let's say, an imperative force.
Timothy
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 1:14 AM, <ari@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I don't think he was inciting us to defend society in 1976 either but as
> you say interpretation is a question.
>
> Arianna
>
> The form of the imperative and the form of the bare infinitive (without
> > 'to') are identical in English - and identical to most present tense
> forms
> > are the same, with the exception of third person singular. So it's a
> > question of interpretation. Given the infinitives in the original
> French,
> > I
> > think infinitives are the most parsimonious solution in the English. The
> > imperative doesn't quite make sense here, does it? He's not enjoining us
> > to
> > discipline and punish...
> > Tim
> >
> >
> >
> > On 9/5/09 12:52 AM, "ari@xxxxxxxx" <ari@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> >> I interpret the verbs as being in the imperative tense.
> >>
> >>> The verbs in 'Discipline and Punish' are both infinitives, not present
> >>> tense
> >>> verbs. English has two infinitive forms, with and without 'to'; words
> >>> like
> >>> 'can', 'must', etc require the bare infinitive as it is called,
> >>> otherwise
> >>> the 'infinitive without 'to''. So from the grammatical point of view
> >>> we
> >>> could have had 'Survey and Punish', though of course there are
> >>> objections
> >>> to
> >>> 'survey' on other grounds, as various people have already pointed out.
> >>> Tim
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 8/5/09 11:33 PM, "David Shumway" <shumway@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> The English translation is DISCIPLINE AND PUNISH, not "punishment."
> >>>> Both terms are verbs, but not infinitives as are those in the French
> >>>> title. There is no exact equivalent to "Surveiller" in English; it
> >>>> does
> >>>> not mean surveillance in the usual sense of that word in English.
> >>>> Moreover a title that used the exact cognates, "To survey and to
> >>>> punish," would neither be clear nor catchy. Thus the choice of present
> >>>> tense verbs, for which again, "survey" does not work. Finally, one
> >>>> could
> >>>> argue that the English title actually better reflects the focus of the
> >>>> book because "discipline" is a more important concept there than is
> >>>> surveillance.
> >>>>
> >>>> David
> >>>>
> >>>> Tamir Sorek wrote:
> >>>>> Hello,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Does anyone can help me to solve the following puzzle: Why did Michel
> >>>>> Foucault ask to translate the title of his book "Surveiller Et Punir"
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> "Discipline and Punishment" in English, instead of "Surveillance and
> >>>>> Punishment"? Did he think that his French title was misunderstood?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you in advance for your help,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Tamir Sorek
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Professor Tim McNamara
> >>> Discipline Chair, Linguistics and Applied Linguistics
> >>> School of Languages and Linguistics
> >>> The University of Melbourne
> >>> Victoria 3010
> >>> Australia
> >>> Tel (+ 61 3) 8344 4207
> >>> Fax (+ 61 3) 8344 8990
> >>> Web:
> >>>
> www.linguistics.unimelb.edu.au/about/staff/profiles/mcnamara/index.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Foucault-L mailing list
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Foucault-L mailing list
> >
> > --
> > Professor Tim McNamara
> > Discipline Chair, Linguistics and Applied Linguistics
> > School of Languages and Linguistics
> > The University of Melbourne
> > Victoria 3010
> > Australia
> > Tel (+ 61 3) 8344 4207
> > Fax (+ 61 3) 8344 8990
> > Web:
> > www.linguistics.unimelb.edu.au/about/staff/profiles/mcnamara/index.html
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Foucault-L mailing list
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
>
Margeurite Duras, 'Detruire, dit-elle' - which is infinitive but is
translated as 'Destroy, she said'.
and, of course:
Baudrillard, 'Oublier Foucault', also infinitive, also translated in
imperative 'Forget Foucault'.
I don't think these are mis-translations. It's just that in French, at least
in titles, an infinitive is often used with, let's say, an imperative force.
Timothy
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 1:14 AM, <ari@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I don't think he was inciting us to defend society in 1976 either but as
> you say interpretation is a question.
>
> Arianna
>
> The form of the imperative and the form of the bare infinitive (without
> > 'to') are identical in English - and identical to most present tense
> forms
> > are the same, with the exception of third person singular. So it's a
> > question of interpretation. Given the infinitives in the original
> French,
> > I
> > think infinitives are the most parsimonious solution in the English. The
> > imperative doesn't quite make sense here, does it? He's not enjoining us
> > to
> > discipline and punish...
> > Tim
> >
> >
> >
> > On 9/5/09 12:52 AM, "ari@xxxxxxxx" <ari@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> >> I interpret the verbs as being in the imperative tense.
> >>
> >>> The verbs in 'Discipline and Punish' are both infinitives, not present
> >>> tense
> >>> verbs. English has two infinitive forms, with and without 'to'; words
> >>> like
> >>> 'can', 'must', etc require the bare infinitive as it is called,
> >>> otherwise
> >>> the 'infinitive without 'to''. So from the grammatical point of view
> >>> we
> >>> could have had 'Survey and Punish', though of course there are
> >>> objections
> >>> to
> >>> 'survey' on other grounds, as various people have already pointed out.
> >>> Tim
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 8/5/09 11:33 PM, "David Shumway" <shumway@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> The English translation is DISCIPLINE AND PUNISH, not "punishment."
> >>>> Both terms are verbs, but not infinitives as are those in the French
> >>>> title. There is no exact equivalent to "Surveiller" in English; it
> >>>> does
> >>>> not mean surveillance in the usual sense of that word in English.
> >>>> Moreover a title that used the exact cognates, "To survey and to
> >>>> punish," would neither be clear nor catchy. Thus the choice of present
> >>>> tense verbs, for which again, "survey" does not work. Finally, one
> >>>> could
> >>>> argue that the English title actually better reflects the focus of the
> >>>> book because "discipline" is a more important concept there than is
> >>>> surveillance.
> >>>>
> >>>> David
> >>>>
> >>>> Tamir Sorek wrote:
> >>>>> Hello,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Does anyone can help me to solve the following puzzle: Why did Michel
> >>>>> Foucault ask to translate the title of his book "Surveiller Et Punir"
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> "Discipline and Punishment" in English, instead of "Surveillance and
> >>>>> Punishment"? Did he think that his French title was misunderstood?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you in advance for your help,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Tamir Sorek
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Professor Tim McNamara
> >>> Discipline Chair, Linguistics and Applied Linguistics
> >>> School of Languages and Linguistics
> >>> The University of Melbourne
> >>> Victoria 3010
> >>> Australia
> >>> Tel (+ 61 3) 8344 4207
> >>> Fax (+ 61 3) 8344 8990
> >>> Web:
> >>>
> www.linguistics.unimelb.edu.au/about/staff/profiles/mcnamara/index.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Foucault-L mailing list
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Foucault-L mailing list
> >
> > --
> > Professor Tim McNamara
> > Discipline Chair, Linguistics and Applied Linguistics
> > School of Languages and Linguistics
> > The University of Melbourne
> > Victoria 3010
> > Australia
> > Tel (+ 61 3) 8344 4207
> > Fax (+ 61 3) 8344 8990
> > Web:
> > www.linguistics.unimelb.edu.au/about/staff/profiles/mcnamara/index.html
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Foucault-L mailing list
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
>