Infinitives in this sort of construction are distinctly odd in English,
that's true, but they may not have sounded odd to Foucault's ear, given that
he provided the translation. A possible parallel is the title of the novel
and film, 'Advise and Consent' - Wikipedia has the following explanation:
'The novel's title comes from the United States Constitution's Article II,
Sec. 2, cl. 2, which provides that the President of the United States "shall
nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall
appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consults, Judges of the
Supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States...."'
So the author has taken the nouns and turned them into verbs. They are
somehow moodless, as in the title of Foucault's book.
Tim
On 9/5/09 1:10 AM, "David Shumway" <shumway@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> Yes. Thanks for that clarification. Present imperative is correct. No
> English speaker would hear the words as infinitives.
>
> ari@xxxxxxxx wrote:
>> I interpret the verbs as being in the imperative tense.
>>
>>
>>> The verbs in 'Discipline and Punish' are both infinitives, not present
>>> tense
>>> verbs. English has two infinitive forms, with and without 'to'; words
>>> like
>>> 'can', 'must', etc require the bare infinitive as it is called, otherwise
>>> the 'infinitive without 'to''. So from the grammatical point of view we
>>> could have had 'Survey and Punish', though of course there are objections
>>> to
>>> 'survey' on other grounds, as various people have already pointed out.
>>> Tim
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/5/09 11:33 PM, "David Shumway" <shumway@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> The English translation is DISCIPLINE AND PUNISH, not "punishment."
>>>> Both terms are verbs, but not infinitives as are those in the French
>>>> title. There is no exact equivalent to "Surveiller" in English; it does
>>>> not mean surveillance in the usual sense of that word in English.
>>>> Moreover a title that used the exact cognates, "To survey and to
>>>> punish," would neither be clear nor catchy. Thus the choice of present
>>>> tense verbs, for which again, "survey" does not work. Finally, one could
>>>> argue that the English title actually better reflects the focus of the
>>>> book because "discipline" is a more important concept there than is
>>>> surveillance.
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>> Tamir Sorek wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone can help me to solve the following puzzle: Why did Michel
>>>>> Foucault ask to translate the title of his book "Surveiller Et Punir"
>>>>> to
>>>>> "Discipline and Punishment" in English, instead of "Surveillance and
>>>>> Punishment"? Did he think that his French title was misunderstood?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you in advance for your help,
>>>>>
>>>>> Tamir Sorek
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> --
>>> Professor Tim McNamara
>>> Discipline Chair, Linguistics and Applied Linguistics
>>> School of Languages and Linguistics
>>> The University of Melbourne
>>> Victoria 3010
>>> Australia
>>> Tel (+ 61 3) 8344 4207
>>> Fax (+ 61 3) 8344 8990
>>> Web:
>>> www.linguistics.unimelb.edu.au/about/staff/profiles/mcnamara/index.html
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Foucault-L mailing list
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Foucault-L mailing list
>>
>>
--
Professor Tim McNamara
Discipline Chair, Linguistics and Applied Linguistics
School of Languages and Linguistics
The University of Melbourne
Victoria 3010
Australia
Tel (+ 61 3) 8344 4207
Fax (+ 61 3) 8344 8990
Web: www.linguistics.unimelb.edu.au/about/staff/profiles/mcnamara/index.html
that's true, but they may not have sounded odd to Foucault's ear, given that
he provided the translation. A possible parallel is the title of the novel
and film, 'Advise and Consent' - Wikipedia has the following explanation:
'The novel's title comes from the United States Constitution's Article II,
Sec. 2, cl. 2, which provides that the President of the United States "shall
nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall
appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consults, Judges of the
Supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States...."'
So the author has taken the nouns and turned them into verbs. They are
somehow moodless, as in the title of Foucault's book.
Tim
On 9/5/09 1:10 AM, "David Shumway" <shumway@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> Yes. Thanks for that clarification. Present imperative is correct. No
> English speaker would hear the words as infinitives.
>
> ari@xxxxxxxx wrote:
>> I interpret the verbs as being in the imperative tense.
>>
>>
>>> The verbs in 'Discipline and Punish' are both infinitives, not present
>>> tense
>>> verbs. English has two infinitive forms, with and without 'to'; words
>>> like
>>> 'can', 'must', etc require the bare infinitive as it is called, otherwise
>>> the 'infinitive without 'to''. So from the grammatical point of view we
>>> could have had 'Survey and Punish', though of course there are objections
>>> to
>>> 'survey' on other grounds, as various people have already pointed out.
>>> Tim
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/5/09 11:33 PM, "David Shumway" <shumway@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> The English translation is DISCIPLINE AND PUNISH, not "punishment."
>>>> Both terms are verbs, but not infinitives as are those in the French
>>>> title. There is no exact equivalent to "Surveiller" in English; it does
>>>> not mean surveillance in the usual sense of that word in English.
>>>> Moreover a title that used the exact cognates, "To survey and to
>>>> punish," would neither be clear nor catchy. Thus the choice of present
>>>> tense verbs, for which again, "survey" does not work. Finally, one could
>>>> argue that the English title actually better reflects the focus of the
>>>> book because "discipline" is a more important concept there than is
>>>> surveillance.
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>> Tamir Sorek wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone can help me to solve the following puzzle: Why did Michel
>>>>> Foucault ask to translate the title of his book "Surveiller Et Punir"
>>>>> to
>>>>> "Discipline and Punishment" in English, instead of "Surveillance and
>>>>> Punishment"? Did he think that his French title was misunderstood?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you in advance for your help,
>>>>>
>>>>> Tamir Sorek
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> --
>>> Professor Tim McNamara
>>> Discipline Chair, Linguistics and Applied Linguistics
>>> School of Languages and Linguistics
>>> The University of Melbourne
>>> Victoria 3010
>>> Australia
>>> Tel (+ 61 3) 8344 4207
>>> Fax (+ 61 3) 8344 8990
>>> Web:
>>> www.linguistics.unimelb.edu.au/about/staff/profiles/mcnamara/index.html
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Foucault-L mailing list
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Foucault-L mailing list
>>
>>
--
Professor Tim McNamara
Discipline Chair, Linguistics and Applied Linguistics
School of Languages and Linguistics
The University of Melbourne
Victoria 3010
Australia
Tel (+ 61 3) 8344 4207
Fax (+ 61 3) 8344 8990
Web: www.linguistics.unimelb.edu.au/about/staff/profiles/mcnamara/index.html