OK, Israelians are nationalists - now what to do with
them? Send them IFOR? ( something like KFOR and
SFOR)Maybe we should send Ariel Sharon to the
"international" tribulnal in Hague?
Zhivko
--- genet son of genet <radiogenet@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> First off the Israel people are not poor. They are
> richer per capita than
> any of the people in Arab countries. Of course they
> receive billions in
> various loan scams from USA and have tons of
> resources from USA. You say
> there is no nationalism in Israel, then read Flapan
> and other historians who
> are now telling us the real story about that
> country. By definition Zionism
> is nationalistic; it was a national idea which
> fueled the movement. There
> was of course some socialist dreaming in the early
> years ie the 30's but
> since Partition it has been the Nation state par
> excelllence. You should
> read the new Israeli historians. You could of course
> start with Chomsky. He
> is Jewish and American in c ase you are paranoid.
> Being a nationalist
> country (in extremis) it is of course racist, (and
> to many of its own
> people), not very democratic, but indeed has been
> described as an
> ethnocracy. How all this relates to Foucault you
> might ask. Well, you are
> the one who has not read or understood your F. He
> wrote about power and
> struggle and how that power is distributed. He was
> an activist if you will,
> in France and was very concerned about Iran and
> Tunisia. So there, please
> re-read and learn. Stop being so limiting and
> limited in your view point.
>
>
> >From: Jivko Georgiev <jivkox43georgiev@xxxxxxxxx>
> >Reply-To: foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >To: foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: Re: Reading Foucault
> >Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 13:16:00 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >My piont was just one: How did You manage to see
> >nationalism in Israel? The poor Israelians are
> trying
> >to make a safe palce for living- for them and for
> >theyr children. What You want of those people?
> Because
> >of your notion of nationalsm they must spread again
> >all over the world and expirience another
> holocaust?
> >Would they ruin the houses of the arabs, if the
> arabs
> >did not insisted all the time to chase away the
> >israelians from their teritory? If the arabs
> accepted
> >to live in peace with israel, then than wouldnt
> >expirience that "ethnic cleansing". But no, they
> have
> >to proclaim djihad all the time. Israel is just
> >defending itd people, like it must do. Thats all.
> >
> >Zhivko
> >--- Stuart Elden <stuart.elden@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > > Unfortunately there are many texts of foucault
> > > which
> > > > are like this - everyday a new collection
> appears,
> > > > than go search it, find it and read it.
> > >
> > > Aside from the exaggeration, and that English
> > > language readers of Foucault
> > > are being resold largely the same material in
> new
> > > collections, without much
> > > of the extremely interesting and valuable French
> > > material being made
> > > available, this was precisely my point. There is
> a
> > > lecture course of
> > > Foucault's that deals, in detail, with what you
> > > stated, quite emphatically,
> > > he _never_ dealt with.
> > >
> > > But why should
> > > > see in the biopower point on the nationalism?
> > >
> > > Because Foucault did?
> > >
> > > In another post you suggested
> > >
> > > >> If you can't see how biopower relates to
> > > >> nationalism, I don't know what to
> > > >> tell you.
> > > >>
> > > >neither do i, sorry. I cant see such thing,
> > > honestly.
> > > >The nationalism was a question foucault never
> cared
> > > >about...
> > >
> > > That just doesn't chime with the reading in Il
> faut
> > > defendre la societe,
> > > which is why I recommended it!
> > >
> > > > why not
> > > > apply it to the western society, where
> nationalism
> > > is
> > > > a dirty word?
> > >
> > > Foucault uses his understanding of the war of
> races
> > > - derived from
> > > Boulainviller - to understand France (Francs,
> Gauls,
> > > Romans) and Britain
> > > (Normans and Saxons). He discusses, amongst
> other
> > > things, variant readings
> > > of the French Revolution. He then discusses how
> this
> > > changes through
> > > mathematical techniques, and techniques of order
> (a
> > > politicised rereading of
> > > The Order of Things) and relates it to the term
> > > bio-power, and then
> > > discusses National Socialism and socialism more
> > > generally in terms of
> > > nationalism and racism.
> > >
> > > What is your problem with the
> > > > nationalism when the world tryies to be as
> one? i
> > > was
> > > > discussed about how the manipulating western
> media
> > > > presented the war in kossovo as a nationalism,
> > > when it
> > > > was a war between mafia groups. And because of
> > > this
> > > > they gave the balkans in the hands of the
> albanian
> > > > mafia. If you have any idea of the albanian
> mafia,
> > > you
> > > > must know what i am talking about.
> > >
> > > This was not my point. I don't pretend to have
> an
> > > encyclopedic knowledge of
> > > these complicated struggles, and that's why I
> don't
> > > make pronouncements on
> > > them. At its best, this list gives food for
> thought
> > > and speculation. My
> > > point was to contest your reading of Foucault,
> which
> > > was simply inaccurate.
> > >
> > > I think there much
> > > > more importenant issues to diefine about
> foucault
> > > than
> > > > nationalism - like his notion of dispositif,
> > > serie,
> > > > ensemble, genealogy, archeology,panopticism.
> > >
> > > That might be true, but that's hardly what you
> were
> > > saying before. There is
> > > an extensive literature on these issues you note
> -
> > > of varying quality of
> > > course, and that's not in anyway to foreclose
> > > discussion and debate about
> > > these terms. For my part, i've done most of my
> > > thinking through of those
> > > issues, and i've written extensively about them,
> and
> > > so I find the newly
> > > published lecture courses extremely interesting
> in
> > > raising some different,
> > > though related, issues. The notions of
> nationalism,
> > > bio-power, war of races,
> > > etc. - these seem to me to be thought through
> only
> > > in summary fashion. For
> > > instance, Foucault wrote/delivered an entire
> course
> > > called the Birth of
> > > Biopolitics, which is bound to throw most of the
> > > current work on that topic
> > > off balance, and then there are the extensive
> > > commentaries on the notion of
> > > 'governmentality', when the text of that name in
> The
>
=== message truncated ===
__________________________________________________
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them? Send them IFOR? ( something like KFOR and
SFOR)Maybe we should send Ariel Sharon to the
"international" tribulnal in Hague?
Zhivko
--- genet son of genet <radiogenet@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> First off the Israel people are not poor. They are
> richer per capita than
> any of the people in Arab countries. Of course they
> receive billions in
> various loan scams from USA and have tons of
> resources from USA. You say
> there is no nationalism in Israel, then read Flapan
> and other historians who
> are now telling us the real story about that
> country. By definition Zionism
> is nationalistic; it was a national idea which
> fueled the movement. There
> was of course some socialist dreaming in the early
> years ie the 30's but
> since Partition it has been the Nation state par
> excelllence. You should
> read the new Israeli historians. You could of course
> start with Chomsky. He
> is Jewish and American in c ase you are paranoid.
> Being a nationalist
> country (in extremis) it is of course racist, (and
> to many of its own
> people), not very democratic, but indeed has been
> described as an
> ethnocracy. How all this relates to Foucault you
> might ask. Well, you are
> the one who has not read or understood your F. He
> wrote about power and
> struggle and how that power is distributed. He was
> an activist if you will,
> in France and was very concerned about Iran and
> Tunisia. So there, please
> re-read and learn. Stop being so limiting and
> limited in your view point.
>
>
> >From: Jivko Georgiev <jivkox43georgiev@xxxxxxxxx>
> >Reply-To: foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >To: foucault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: Re: Reading Foucault
> >Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 13:16:00 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >My piont was just one: How did You manage to see
> >nationalism in Israel? The poor Israelians are
> trying
> >to make a safe palce for living- for them and for
> >theyr children. What You want of those people?
> Because
> >of your notion of nationalsm they must spread again
> >all over the world and expirience another
> holocaust?
> >Would they ruin the houses of the arabs, if the
> arabs
> >did not insisted all the time to chase away the
> >israelians from their teritory? If the arabs
> accepted
> >to live in peace with israel, then than wouldnt
> >expirience that "ethnic cleansing". But no, they
> have
> >to proclaim djihad all the time. Israel is just
> >defending itd people, like it must do. Thats all.
> >
> >Zhivko
> >--- Stuart Elden <stuart.elden@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > > Unfortunately there are many texts of foucault
> > > which
> > > > are like this - everyday a new collection
> appears,
> > > > than go search it, find it and read it.
> > >
> > > Aside from the exaggeration, and that English
> > > language readers of Foucault
> > > are being resold largely the same material in
> new
> > > collections, without much
> > > of the extremely interesting and valuable French
> > > material being made
> > > available, this was precisely my point. There is
> a
> > > lecture course of
> > > Foucault's that deals, in detail, with what you
> > > stated, quite emphatically,
> > > he _never_ dealt with.
> > >
> > > But why should
> > > > see in the biopower point on the nationalism?
> > >
> > > Because Foucault did?
> > >
> > > In another post you suggested
> > >
> > > >> If you can't see how biopower relates to
> > > >> nationalism, I don't know what to
> > > >> tell you.
> > > >>
> > > >neither do i, sorry. I cant see such thing,
> > > honestly.
> > > >The nationalism was a question foucault never
> cared
> > > >about...
> > >
> > > That just doesn't chime with the reading in Il
> faut
> > > defendre la societe,
> > > which is why I recommended it!
> > >
> > > > why not
> > > > apply it to the western society, where
> nationalism
> > > is
> > > > a dirty word?
> > >
> > > Foucault uses his understanding of the war of
> races
> > > - derived from
> > > Boulainviller - to understand France (Francs,
> Gauls,
> > > Romans) and Britain
> > > (Normans and Saxons). He discusses, amongst
> other
> > > things, variant readings
> > > of the French Revolution. He then discusses how
> this
> > > changes through
> > > mathematical techniques, and techniques of order
> (a
> > > politicised rereading of
> > > The Order of Things) and relates it to the term
> > > bio-power, and then
> > > discusses National Socialism and socialism more
> > > generally in terms of
> > > nationalism and racism.
> > >
> > > What is your problem with the
> > > > nationalism when the world tryies to be as
> one? i
> > > was
> > > > discussed about how the manipulating western
> media
> > > > presented the war in kossovo as a nationalism,
> > > when it
> > > > was a war between mafia groups. And because of
> > > this
> > > > they gave the balkans in the hands of the
> albanian
> > > > mafia. If you have any idea of the albanian
> mafia,
> > > you
> > > > must know what i am talking about.
> > >
> > > This was not my point. I don't pretend to have
> an
> > > encyclopedic knowledge of
> > > these complicated struggles, and that's why I
> don't
> > > make pronouncements on
> > > them. At its best, this list gives food for
> thought
> > > and speculation. My
> > > point was to contest your reading of Foucault,
> which
> > > was simply inaccurate.
> > >
> > > I think there much
> > > > more importenant issues to diefine about
> foucault
> > > than
> > > > nationalism - like his notion of dispositif,
> > > serie,
> > > > ensemble, genealogy, archeology,panopticism.
> > >
> > > That might be true, but that's hardly what you
> were
> > > saying before. There is
> > > an extensive literature on these issues you note
> -
> > > of varying quality of
> > > course, and that's not in anyway to foreclose
> > > discussion and debate about
> > > these terms. For my part, i've done most of my
> > > thinking through of those
> > > issues, and i've written extensively about them,
> and
> > > so I find the newly
> > > published lecture courses extremely interesting
> in
> > > raising some different,
> > > though related, issues. The notions of
> nationalism,
> > > bio-power, war of races,
> > > etc. - these seem to me to be thought through
> only
> > > in summary fashion. For
> > > instance, Foucault wrote/delivered an entire
> course
> > > called the Birth of
> > > Biopolitics, which is bound to throw most of the
> > > current work on that topic
> > > off balance, and then there are the extensive
> > > commentaries on the notion of
> > > 'governmentality', when the text of that name in
> The
>
=== message truncated ===
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