Personally speaking, I still think the concept of ideology is very
important to understanding this world. It wasn't useful to Foucault, for
what he was trying to do. And what he did was radical and very important.
But at least for me, the concept of ideology is still something I wrestle
with. Of course I say "the concept of ideology" as if there is just one. A
brief survey of the literature shows it can mean many different things,
some of them more interesting than others.
Best,
Nate
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 3:38 PM, Chathan Vemuri <aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
> I'm aware of his critique of ideology and why he made it. What I'm
> interested in is how to evaluate it in a world where 'ideology is
> dead' according to many "ideologues" and much of leftist criticism
> relies on the notion of ideology. I guess I'm asking how one could
> justify it within a leftist space without falling into
> liberal-capitalist discourse about "the end of ideology".
>
> On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 4:01 AM, Nathaniel Roberts <npr4@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> > By pure chance I just re-read the very passage Kevin refers to. In it
> > Foucault also outlines very briefly what he sees as lacking about
> ideology
> > as an analytical tool. I don't have my papers with me, but I'm 90% sure
> it
> > was in Power/Knowledge and more specifically in the interview called
> > something like "Knowledge and Power." The passage, I think, comes towards
> > the end.
> > Nate
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Kevin Turner <kevin.turner@xxxxxxxxx
> >wrote:
> >
> >> I find it really interesting this desire to neutralise the radicality of
> >> Foucault and return him to the (academic) fold.
> >> As far as I can see, Foucault became highly critical of the notion of
> >> ideology. And rather than building upon it he stated at one point, I
> forget
> >> where, that he had no use for this notion, unlike that of repression,
> which
> >> he found much harder to shakle off.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Kevin.
> >>
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: fkalouche@xxxxxxxxxxx
> >> > Sent: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 18:03:40 -0500
> >> > To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> > Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Ideology and Consciousness
> >> >
> >> > Sorry, I do not understand the relation you are alluding to.
> >> >
> >> > F. Is expanding and transforming the concept of ideology to encompass
> >> > cultural, political, economic, social and other domains of historical
> >> > production, where ontology englobes epistemology.
> >> >
> >> > Arguably, he is being more Marxian than the early Marx of the German
> >> > Ideology by revisiting how Marxian "production" takes place in a an
> >> > ontology of multiplicity and becoming instead of relying on a
> >> > teleological and linear and determined view of development with
> beginning
> >> > and end. This is what transformation is.
> >> >
> >> > F.
> >> >
> >> >> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 16:49:44 -0600
> >> >> From: aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
> >> >> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Ideology and Consciousness
> >> >>
> >> >> Fouad how would you distinguish this from the "end of ideology"
> thesis
> >> >> popular in neoconservative and liberal circles.
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 4:41 PM, Fouad Kalouche <
> fkalouche@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>> Foucault addresses Marxian approaches to ideology most directly in
> >> >>> Truth and Juridical forms, in 1975, and this is the first moment of
> his
> >> >>> engagement with a genealogy of truth in forms of testing, inquiry,
> and
> >> >>> experimentation--where truth relations are proven to be part of the
> >> >>> fabric of historical Ontologies and not just produced by modes of
> >> >>> production.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> A second moment of the study of regimes of truth as forms of
> >> >>> veridiction engaged in subjectivization starts with the 1980
> college de
> >> >>> France course (subjectivite et verite) and ends with the 1984 course
> >> >>> (courage de la verite) and this moment shapes the later published
> >> >>> ,works of F. (History of sexuality, etc.).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> These are just the primary sources. Someone will surely help out
> with
> >> >>> secondary sources.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Best,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Fouad Kalouche
> >> >>>
> >> >>> P.s. does anyone know anything about the Genet and Sade paper that
> >> >>> Foucault supposedly destroyed upon his return from Sweden? Anything
> >> >>> written about the subject?
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 15:05:08 -0600
> >> >>>> From: aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
> >> >>>> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Ideology and Consciousness
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> An old friend gave me three copies of Ideology and Consciousness
> >> >>>> issues from the late 70's and early 80's. There are essays in
> there by
> >> >>>> Nikolas Rose, Jacques Donzelot, and Castel (I think). An early
> version
> >> >>>> of Foucault's famous "Governmentality" lecture is in one of them as
> >> >>>> well.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Kevin Turner <
> kevin.turner@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> >>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>> Does anyone know if it is still possible to get hold of copies of
> the
> >> >>>>> journal "Ideology and Consciousness," preferably as scanned pdfs.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Best, Kevin.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >>>>>> From: goran.gaber@xxxxxxxx
> >> >>>>>> Sent: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 15:26:37 +0100
> >> >>>>>> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >>>>>> Subject: [Foucault-L] Regimes of truth
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Hello,
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> I'm looking for Foucault's own clarifications on the concept
> "regime
> >> >>>>>> de
> >> >>>>>> verite" as well as any other secondary sources on this matter -
> >> >>>>>> would be
> >> >>>>>> very grateful for bibliography indications.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Best, Goran
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>>>> Foucault-L mailing list
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> ____________________________________________________________
> >> >>>>> Publish your photos in seconds for FREE
> >> >>>>> TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if4
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>>> Foucault-L mailing list
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> --
> >> >>>> Chathan Vemuri
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> 900 58th Street
> >> >>>> West Des Moines, IA 50266
> >> >>>> chathan-vemuri@xxxxxxxxx
> >> >>>> (319)-512-9318
> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>> Foucault-L mailing list
> >> >>>
> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>> Foucault-L mailing list
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Chathan Vemuri
> >> >>
> >> >> 900 58th Street
> >> >> West Des Moines, IA 50266
> >> >> chathan-vemuri@xxxxxxxxx
> >> >> (319)-512-9318
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Foucault-L mailing list
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Foucault-L mailing list
> >>
> >> ____________________________________________________________
> >> Share photos & screenshots in seconds...
> >> TRY FREE IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if1
> >> Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social
> networks.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Foucault-L mailing list
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dr. Nathaniel Roberts<
> http://www.mmg.mpg.de/departments/religious-diversity/scientific-staff/dr-nathaniel-roberts/
> >
> > Max Planck Institute for the Study of Religious and Ethnic Diversity
> > Herman-Föge-Weg 11
> > 37073 Göttingen
> > Germany
> > +49 (0) 551-4956-0
> > _______________________________________________
> > Foucault-L mailing list
>
>
>
> --
> Chathan Vemuri
>
> 900 58th Street
> West Des Moines, IA 50266
> chathan-vemuri@xxxxxxxxx
> (319)-512-9318
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
>
--
Dr. Nathaniel Roberts<http://www.mmg.mpg.de/departments/religious-diversity/scientific-staff/dr-nathaniel-roberts/>
Max Planck Institute for the Study of Religious and Ethnic Diversity
Herman-Föge-Weg 11
37073 Göttingen
Germany
+49 (0) 551-4956-0
important to understanding this world. It wasn't useful to Foucault, for
what he was trying to do. And what he did was radical and very important.
But at least for me, the concept of ideology is still something I wrestle
with. Of course I say "the concept of ideology" as if there is just one. A
brief survey of the literature shows it can mean many different things,
some of them more interesting than others.
Best,
Nate
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 3:38 PM, Chathan Vemuri <aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
> I'm aware of his critique of ideology and why he made it. What I'm
> interested in is how to evaluate it in a world where 'ideology is
> dead' according to many "ideologues" and much of leftist criticism
> relies on the notion of ideology. I guess I'm asking how one could
> justify it within a leftist space without falling into
> liberal-capitalist discourse about "the end of ideology".
>
> On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 4:01 AM, Nathaniel Roberts <npr4@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> > By pure chance I just re-read the very passage Kevin refers to. In it
> > Foucault also outlines very briefly what he sees as lacking about
> ideology
> > as an analytical tool. I don't have my papers with me, but I'm 90% sure
> it
> > was in Power/Knowledge and more specifically in the interview called
> > something like "Knowledge and Power." The passage, I think, comes towards
> > the end.
> > Nate
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Kevin Turner <kevin.turner@xxxxxxxxx
> >wrote:
> >
> >> I find it really interesting this desire to neutralise the radicality of
> >> Foucault and return him to the (academic) fold.
> >> As far as I can see, Foucault became highly critical of the notion of
> >> ideology. And rather than building upon it he stated at one point, I
> forget
> >> where, that he had no use for this notion, unlike that of repression,
> which
> >> he found much harder to shakle off.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Kevin.
> >>
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: fkalouche@xxxxxxxxxxx
> >> > Sent: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 18:03:40 -0500
> >> > To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> > Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Ideology and Consciousness
> >> >
> >> > Sorry, I do not understand the relation you are alluding to.
> >> >
> >> > F. Is expanding and transforming the concept of ideology to encompass
> >> > cultural, political, economic, social and other domains of historical
> >> > production, where ontology englobes epistemology.
> >> >
> >> > Arguably, he is being more Marxian than the early Marx of the German
> >> > Ideology by revisiting how Marxian "production" takes place in a an
> >> > ontology of multiplicity and becoming instead of relying on a
> >> > teleological and linear and determined view of development with
> beginning
> >> > and end. This is what transformation is.
> >> >
> >> > F.
> >> >
> >> >> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 16:49:44 -0600
> >> >> From: aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
> >> >> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Ideology and Consciousness
> >> >>
> >> >> Fouad how would you distinguish this from the "end of ideology"
> thesis
> >> >> popular in neoconservative and liberal circles.
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 4:41 PM, Fouad Kalouche <
> fkalouche@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>> Foucault addresses Marxian approaches to ideology most directly in
> >> >>> Truth and Juridical forms, in 1975, and this is the first moment of
> his
> >> >>> engagement with a genealogy of truth in forms of testing, inquiry,
> and
> >> >>> experimentation--where truth relations are proven to be part of the
> >> >>> fabric of historical Ontologies and not just produced by modes of
> >> >>> production.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> A second moment of the study of regimes of truth as forms of
> >> >>> veridiction engaged in subjectivization starts with the 1980
> college de
> >> >>> France course (subjectivite et verite) and ends with the 1984 course
> >> >>> (courage de la verite) and this moment shapes the later published
> >> >>> ,works of F. (History of sexuality, etc.).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> These are just the primary sources. Someone will surely help out
> with
> >> >>> secondary sources.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Best,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Fouad Kalouche
> >> >>>
> >> >>> P.s. does anyone know anything about the Genet and Sade paper that
> >> >>> Foucault supposedly destroyed upon his return from Sweden? Anything
> >> >>> written about the subject?
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 15:05:08 -0600
> >> >>>> From: aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
> >> >>>> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Ideology and Consciousness
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> An old friend gave me three copies of Ideology and Consciousness
> >> >>>> issues from the late 70's and early 80's. There are essays in
> there by
> >> >>>> Nikolas Rose, Jacques Donzelot, and Castel (I think). An early
> version
> >> >>>> of Foucault's famous "Governmentality" lecture is in one of them as
> >> >>>> well.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Kevin Turner <
> kevin.turner@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> >>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>> Does anyone know if it is still possible to get hold of copies of
> the
> >> >>>>> journal "Ideology and Consciousness," preferably as scanned pdfs.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Best, Kevin.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >>>>>> From: goran.gaber@xxxxxxxx
> >> >>>>>> Sent: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 15:26:37 +0100
> >> >>>>>> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >>>>>> Subject: [Foucault-L] Regimes of truth
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Hello,
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> I'm looking for Foucault's own clarifications on the concept
> "regime
> >> >>>>>> de
> >> >>>>>> verite" as well as any other secondary sources on this matter -
> >> >>>>>> would be
> >> >>>>>> very grateful for bibliography indications.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Best, Goran
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>>>> Foucault-L mailing list
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> ____________________________________________________________
> >> >>>>> Publish your photos in seconds for FREE
> >> >>>>> TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if4
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>>> Foucault-L mailing list
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> --
> >> >>>> Chathan Vemuri
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> 900 58th Street
> >> >>>> West Des Moines, IA 50266
> >> >>>> chathan-vemuri@xxxxxxxxx
> >> >>>> (319)-512-9318
> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>> Foucault-L mailing list
> >> >>>
> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>> Foucault-L mailing list
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Chathan Vemuri
> >> >>
> >> >> 900 58th Street
> >> >> West Des Moines, IA 50266
> >> >> chathan-vemuri@xxxxxxxxx
> >> >> (319)-512-9318
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Foucault-L mailing list
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Foucault-L mailing list
> >>
> >> ____________________________________________________________
> >> Share photos & screenshots in seconds...
> >> TRY FREE IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if1
> >> Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social
> networks.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Foucault-L mailing list
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dr. Nathaniel Roberts<
> http://www.mmg.mpg.de/departments/religious-diversity/scientific-staff/dr-nathaniel-roberts/
> >
> > Max Planck Institute for the Study of Religious and Ethnic Diversity
> > Herman-Föge-Weg 11
> > 37073 Göttingen
> > Germany
> > +49 (0) 551-4956-0
> > _______________________________________________
> > Foucault-L mailing list
>
>
>
> --
> Chathan Vemuri
>
> 900 58th Street
> West Des Moines, IA 50266
> chathan-vemuri@xxxxxxxxx
> (319)-512-9318
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
>
--
Dr. Nathaniel Roberts<http://www.mmg.mpg.de/departments/religious-diversity/scientific-staff/dr-nathaniel-roberts/>
Max Planck Institute for the Study of Religious and Ethnic Diversity
Herman-Föge-Weg 11
37073 Göttingen
Germany
+49 (0) 551-4956-0