Ditto what Jeffrey said
On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 8:39 AM, Jeffrey Tallane <linactuel@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I would agree with Chetan: Bergson is Deleuze's main infuence and they
> certainly informeed each other. And for sure, Foucault knew Bergson's work.
> But, to continue ithis way, it seems that in Foucault's complete Dits et
> Ecrits, whe find the first reference to Bergson in a paper titled "Ariane
> s'est pendue", an article written for Le Nouvel Observateur (6/4/1969) about
> Deleuze's Différence et Répétition...
>
> But, the question was about Bergson's Creative Evolution as the source
> material of The order of things, and I really don't see any evidence to
> confirm this hypothesis, philosophically nor regarding the Foucault's
> archives.
> About the wuotes I could read, I would emphasise that rather than Bergson,
> when Foucault talks about the "small number of authors with whom one thinks,
> with whom one works, but on whom one does not write", this quote is
> abstracted from a posthume interview (1984) in which Foucault was asked
> about the importance of Heidegger in his work, and he answered: "My entire *
> philosophical* development was determined by my reading of Heidegger". The
> other author on whom he didn't wrote much was Nietzsche, the one who
> proviked his "philosophical shock".
>
> To enter a more philosophical argument, his methodological perspective on
> history in The Order Of Things can't fit with Bergson's principle following
> which history of intelligence is considered as a continued linear progress.
> Bergson's Creative Evolution présupposes some kind of retrojective
> teleology, that is precisely the form of rationality from which Foucault
> tries to escape by trying to make the history of "problematisation"...
>
> Cordially
> Jeffrey Tallane
>
>
>
>
> 2010/10/17 Chetan Vemuri <aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx>
>
>> The most connection I can draw is that Deleuze and Foucault mutually
>> informed each other during their early phases, and Bergson was a
>> strong influence on Deleuze.
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 10:25 PM, Chetan Vemuri
>> <aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> > That says more about overlap in ideas than it does about any possible
>> > impact of Bergson on Foucault.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Teresa Mayne <teresa.mayne@xxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>> >> Hello,
>> >>
>> >> I don't think that you can so easily discount Bergson's influence on
>> >> Foucault, but there is one easy solution to this. Instead of going back
>> and
>> >> forth wondering if Foucault was influenced by him in In The Order of
>> Things,
>> >> what would happen if you just placed them in conversation with eachother
>> >> now? (Read closely and between the lines; read method and structure. If
>> >> nothing else Foucault seems to enjoy playing different roles, it is
>> worth
>> >> looking closer at his masks). See what you end up with and how that
>> changes
>> >> your perspective on the other - you may find something that you weren't
>> >> expecting, which is the point after all in regards to better
>> understanding
>> >> someone's perspective.
>> >>
>> >> Good Luck,
>> >>
>> >> Teresa
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Jeffrey Tallane <linactuel@xxxxxxxxx
>> >wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hello
>> >>> I really don't think Bergson was a source material for the order of
>> things.
>> >>> Certainly there can't be anything in common between Bergson and
>> Foucault,
>> >>> particularly regarding the order of things where the conceptions of
>> history
>> >>> and time is in total contradiction with a bergsonian perspective.
>> Rather
>> >>> for
>> >>> sourcers you should look at Georges Dumézil, Martin Heidegger,
>> Borges...
>> >>>
>> >>> Jeffrey Tallane
>> >>>
>> >>> 2010/10/6 Allen Miller <pamiller@xxxxxx>
>> >>>
>> >>> > Thanks, that's really useful.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 7:13 PM, michael bibby <
>> shmickeyd@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>> > >wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> > > Perhaps to give an indication of how Creative Evolution and The
>> Order
>> >>> of
>> >>> > > Things can be read together it is sufficient to juxtapose these
>> >>> passages
>> >>> > > taken from each of them:
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > "All around conceptual thought there remains an indistinct fringe
>> which
>> >>> > > recalls its origin."
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > "that space which is, for thought, on the otherside, but in which
>> it
>> >>> > never
>> >>> > > ceased to think from the very beginning."
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > All the best.
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > "I think it’s important to have a small number of authors with whom
>> >>> > > one thinks, with whom one works, but on whom one does not write."
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > --- On Fri, 1/10/10, Chetan Vemuri <aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > > From: Chetan Vemuri <aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >>> > > > Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Primary works
>> >>> > > > To: "Mailing-list" <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>> > > > Received: Friday, 1 October, 2010, 5:39 AM
>> >>> > > > Is Bergson really necessary in terms
>> >>> > > > of Foucault's sources? What about
>> >>> > > > The Normal and the Pathological by Georges Canguilhem? I'd
>> >>> > > > also throw
>> >>> > > > in anything by Gaston Bachelard. If you're interested, you
>> >>> > > > could also
>> >>> > > > read Paul Feyeraband. He's not a Foucauldian but he was
>> >>> > > > contemparaneous, was influenced by Bachelard, and dealt
>> >>> > > > with parallel
>> >>> > > > issues.
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 4:17 AM, michael bibby <
>> >>> shmickeyd@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > > wrote:
>> >>> > > > > I can do the opposite Zulfiqar: rather than provide
>> >>> > > > you with secondary material on the Order of Things (no doubt
>> >>> > > > your aware of the problems such 'commentary' poses, given
>> >>> > > > the treatment which 'commentary' receives there), I can
>> >>> > > > provide you with one of the source materials for this book,
>> >>> > > > one of those books which Foucault seems to have been working
>> >>> > > > closely with and writing his own alongside, and that is
>> >>> > > > Henry Bergson's Creative Evolution, writen in 1907 and
>> >>> > > > canonical for two generations of European scholars before it
>> >>> > > > fell into relative obscurity. Another book worth taking a
>> >>> > > > look at in this connection is Oswald Spengler's Decline of
>> >>> > > > the West, writen in 1918 and enjoying a similiar popularity
>> >>> > > > before the war.
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > All the best.
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > --- On Tue, 28/9/10, Zulfiqar Ali Philosophy <zali@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>> > > > wrote:
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >> From: Zulfiqar Ali Philosophy <zali@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>> > > > >> Subject: [Foucault-L] secondary works
>> >>> > > > >> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>> > > > >> Received: Tuesday, 28 September, 2010, 5:30 PM
>> >>> > > > >> I have recently finished my Ph. D.
>> >>> > > > >> work on Foucault in relation to Marx. I
>> >>> > > > >> am looking for major critiques on the issue of
>> >>> > > > *epistme
>> >>> > > > >> *and on the major
>> >>> > > > >> argument of The Order of Things. I request all of
>> >>> > > > you to
>> >>> > > > >> kindly identify the
>> >>> > > > >> books or articles in this regard.
>> >>> > > > >>
>> >>> > > > >> Zulfiqar Ali
>> >>> > > > >> Pakistan
>> >>> > > > >> _______________________________________________
>> >>> > > > >> Foucault-L mailing list
>> >>> > > > >>
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > > > > Foucault-L mailing list
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > --
>> >>> > > > Chetan Vemuri
>> >>> > > > West Des Moines, IA
>> >>> > > > aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
>> >>> > > > (319)-512-9318
>> >>> > > begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (319)-512-9318
>> >>> > end_of_the_skype_highlighting
>> >>> > > begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (319)-512-9318
>> >>> > end_of_the_skype_highlighting
>> >>> > > begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (319)-512-9318
>> >>> > end_of_the_skype_highlighting
>> >>> > > begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (319)-512-9318
>> >>> > end_of_the_skype_highlighting
>> >>> > > > "You say you want a Revolution! Well you know, we all want
>> >>> > > > to change the world"
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > > > Foucault-L mailing list
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > > Foucault-L mailing list
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > --
>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > Foucault-L mailing list
>> >>> >
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Foucault-L mailing list
>> >>>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Foucault-L mailing list
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Chetan Vemuri
>> > West Des Moines, IA
>> > aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
>> > (319)-512-9318
>> > "You say you want a Revolution! Well you know, we all want to change the
>> world"
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Chetan Vemuri
>> West Des Moines, IA
>> aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
>> (319)-512-9318
>> "You say you want a Revolution! Well you know, we all want to change the
>> world"
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Foucault-L mailing list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
>
--
Chetan Vemuri
West Des Moines, IA
aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
(319)-512-9318
"You say you want a Revolution! Well you know, we all want to change the world"
On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 8:39 AM, Jeffrey Tallane <linactuel@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I would agree with Chetan: Bergson is Deleuze's main infuence and they
> certainly informeed each other. And for sure, Foucault knew Bergson's work.
> But, to continue ithis way, it seems that in Foucault's complete Dits et
> Ecrits, whe find the first reference to Bergson in a paper titled "Ariane
> s'est pendue", an article written for Le Nouvel Observateur (6/4/1969) about
> Deleuze's Différence et Répétition...
>
> But, the question was about Bergson's Creative Evolution as the source
> material of The order of things, and I really don't see any evidence to
> confirm this hypothesis, philosophically nor regarding the Foucault's
> archives.
> About the wuotes I could read, I would emphasise that rather than Bergson,
> when Foucault talks about the "small number of authors with whom one thinks,
> with whom one works, but on whom one does not write", this quote is
> abstracted from a posthume interview (1984) in which Foucault was asked
> about the importance of Heidegger in his work, and he answered: "My entire *
> philosophical* development was determined by my reading of Heidegger". The
> other author on whom he didn't wrote much was Nietzsche, the one who
> proviked his "philosophical shock".
>
> To enter a more philosophical argument, his methodological perspective on
> history in The Order Of Things can't fit with Bergson's principle following
> which history of intelligence is considered as a continued linear progress.
> Bergson's Creative Evolution présupposes some kind of retrojective
> teleology, that is precisely the form of rationality from which Foucault
> tries to escape by trying to make the history of "problematisation"...
>
> Cordially
> Jeffrey Tallane
>
>
>
>
> 2010/10/17 Chetan Vemuri <aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx>
>
>> The most connection I can draw is that Deleuze and Foucault mutually
>> informed each other during their early phases, and Bergson was a
>> strong influence on Deleuze.
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 10:25 PM, Chetan Vemuri
>> <aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> > That says more about overlap in ideas than it does about any possible
>> > impact of Bergson on Foucault.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Teresa Mayne <teresa.mayne@xxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>> >> Hello,
>> >>
>> >> I don't think that you can so easily discount Bergson's influence on
>> >> Foucault, but there is one easy solution to this. Instead of going back
>> and
>> >> forth wondering if Foucault was influenced by him in In The Order of
>> Things,
>> >> what would happen if you just placed them in conversation with eachother
>> >> now? (Read closely and between the lines; read method and structure. If
>> >> nothing else Foucault seems to enjoy playing different roles, it is
>> worth
>> >> looking closer at his masks). See what you end up with and how that
>> changes
>> >> your perspective on the other - you may find something that you weren't
>> >> expecting, which is the point after all in regards to better
>> understanding
>> >> someone's perspective.
>> >>
>> >> Good Luck,
>> >>
>> >> Teresa
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Jeffrey Tallane <linactuel@xxxxxxxxx
>> >wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hello
>> >>> I really don't think Bergson was a source material for the order of
>> things.
>> >>> Certainly there can't be anything in common between Bergson and
>> Foucault,
>> >>> particularly regarding the order of things where the conceptions of
>> history
>> >>> and time is in total contradiction with a bergsonian perspective.
>> Rather
>> >>> for
>> >>> sourcers you should look at Georges Dumézil, Martin Heidegger,
>> Borges...
>> >>>
>> >>> Jeffrey Tallane
>> >>>
>> >>> 2010/10/6 Allen Miller <pamiller@xxxxxx>
>> >>>
>> >>> > Thanks, that's really useful.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 7:13 PM, michael bibby <
>> shmickeyd@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>> > >wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> > > Perhaps to give an indication of how Creative Evolution and The
>> Order
>> >>> of
>> >>> > > Things can be read together it is sufficient to juxtapose these
>> >>> passages
>> >>> > > taken from each of them:
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > "All around conceptual thought there remains an indistinct fringe
>> which
>> >>> > > recalls its origin."
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > "that space which is, for thought, on the otherside, but in which
>> it
>> >>> > never
>> >>> > > ceased to think from the very beginning."
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > All the best.
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > "I think it’s important to have a small number of authors with whom
>> >>> > > one thinks, with whom one works, but on whom one does not write."
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > --- On Fri, 1/10/10, Chetan Vemuri <aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > > From: Chetan Vemuri <aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >>> > > > Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Primary works
>> >>> > > > To: "Mailing-list" <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>> > > > Received: Friday, 1 October, 2010, 5:39 AM
>> >>> > > > Is Bergson really necessary in terms
>> >>> > > > of Foucault's sources? What about
>> >>> > > > The Normal and the Pathological by Georges Canguilhem? I'd
>> >>> > > > also throw
>> >>> > > > in anything by Gaston Bachelard. If you're interested, you
>> >>> > > > could also
>> >>> > > > read Paul Feyeraband. He's not a Foucauldian but he was
>> >>> > > > contemparaneous, was influenced by Bachelard, and dealt
>> >>> > > > with parallel
>> >>> > > > issues.
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 4:17 AM, michael bibby <
>> >>> shmickeyd@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > > wrote:
>> >>> > > > > I can do the opposite Zulfiqar: rather than provide
>> >>> > > > you with secondary material on the Order of Things (no doubt
>> >>> > > > your aware of the problems such 'commentary' poses, given
>> >>> > > > the treatment which 'commentary' receives there), I can
>> >>> > > > provide you with one of the source materials for this book,
>> >>> > > > one of those books which Foucault seems to have been working
>> >>> > > > closely with and writing his own alongside, and that is
>> >>> > > > Henry Bergson's Creative Evolution, writen in 1907 and
>> >>> > > > canonical for two generations of European scholars before it
>> >>> > > > fell into relative obscurity. Another book worth taking a
>> >>> > > > look at in this connection is Oswald Spengler's Decline of
>> >>> > > > the West, writen in 1918 and enjoying a similiar popularity
>> >>> > > > before the war.
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > All the best.
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > --- On Tue, 28/9/10, Zulfiqar Ali Philosophy <zali@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>> > > > wrote:
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >> From: Zulfiqar Ali Philosophy <zali@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>> > > > >> Subject: [Foucault-L] secondary works
>> >>> > > > >> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>> > > > >> Received: Tuesday, 28 September, 2010, 5:30 PM
>> >>> > > > >> I have recently finished my Ph. D.
>> >>> > > > >> work on Foucault in relation to Marx. I
>> >>> > > > >> am looking for major critiques on the issue of
>> >>> > > > *epistme
>> >>> > > > >> *and on the major
>> >>> > > > >> argument of The Order of Things. I request all of
>> >>> > > > you to
>> >>> > > > >> kindly identify the
>> >>> > > > >> books or articles in this regard.
>> >>> > > > >>
>> >>> > > > >> Zulfiqar Ali
>> >>> > > > >> Pakistan
>> >>> > > > >> _______________________________________________
>> >>> > > > >> Foucault-L mailing list
>> >>> > > > >>
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > > > > Foucault-L mailing list
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > --
>> >>> > > > Chetan Vemuri
>> >>> > > > West Des Moines, IA
>> >>> > > > aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
>> >>> > > > (319)-512-9318
>> >>> > > begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (319)-512-9318
>> >>> > end_of_the_skype_highlighting
>> >>> > > begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (319)-512-9318
>> >>> > end_of_the_skype_highlighting
>> >>> > > begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (319)-512-9318
>> >>> > end_of_the_skype_highlighting
>> >>> > > begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (319)-512-9318
>> >>> > end_of_the_skype_highlighting
>> >>> > > > "You say you want a Revolution! Well you know, we all want
>> >>> > > > to change the world"
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > > > Foucault-L mailing list
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > > Foucault-L mailing list
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > --
>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > Foucault-L mailing list
>> >>> >
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Foucault-L mailing list
>> >>>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Foucault-L mailing list
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Chetan Vemuri
>> > West Des Moines, IA
>> > aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
>> > (319)-512-9318
>> > "You say you want a Revolution! Well you know, we all want to change the
>> world"
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Chetan Vemuri
>> West Des Moines, IA
>> aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
>> (319)-512-9318
>> "You say you want a Revolution! Well you know, we all want to change the
>> world"
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Foucault-L mailing list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
>
--
Chetan Vemuri
West Des Moines, IA
aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
(319)-512-9318
"You say you want a Revolution! Well you know, we all want to change the world"