The question is: what kind of material do whe have to confirm the hypothesis
that Bergson's Evolution créatrice was a "source book" of The order of
things? More generally, on what sort of source can we rely to test such an
hypothesis?
As Machiel Karskens said, Foucault has certainly read Bergson as a student.
But it is still unsufficien to strengthen the hypothesis of Bergson as a
major influence on Foucault. But there are texts showing that other
philosophers who worked on the same kind of philosophical problems as
Bergson. for exemple: Edmund Husserl, Merleau Ponty, Binswanger, Hyppolite
etc It seems that they all had a big influence on Foucault during his
formation...
Cordially,
Jeffrey Tallane
2010/10/17 Teresa Mayne <teresa.mayne@xxxxxxxxx>
> I can see where you guys are coming from. Although, whether or not his
> 'philosophy' agrees with that of Bergson is a different question than
> whether or not he was influenced by him. For example, when I was younger I
> read much of analytic philosophy, particularly Russell and Frege. Now my
> work seems to be very different and does not agree with their philosophy,
> but I am always in conversation with them on a certain level and so I am
> very much influenced and impacted by that school of thought, along with
> others. So, would I say I am influenced or impacted by them? Absolutely;
> but an outsider wouldn't necessarily get that picture by simply reading my
> work.
>
> On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 7:51 AM, M. Karskens <mkarskens@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > I agree with this comment.
> > Foucault never mentions Bergson directely, he
> > just drops his name several times, and he did
> > not write explicitly on Bergson in contrast with Deleuze.
> > However, as all French intellectuals inbetween
> > 1930 and 1970 he read Bergson at least in his baccalaureat.
> > In my opinion he had not so much affinity wih
> > Bergson, cause of his aversion for
> > consciousness-philosophy, and Bergson was a heavy user of it.
> >
> > yours
> > machiel karskens
> >
> >
> > At 05:26 17-10-2010, you wrote:
> > >The most connection I can draw is that Deleuze and Foucault mutually
> > >informed each other during their early phases, and Bergson was a
> > >strong influence on Deleuze.
> > >
> > >On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 10:25 PM, Chetan Vemuri
> > ><aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > > That says more about overlap in ideas than it does about any possible
> > > > impact of Bergson on Foucault.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Teresa Mayne
> > > <teresa.mayne@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > >> Hello,
> > > >>
> > > >> I don't think that you can so easily discount Bergson's influence on
> > > >> Foucault, but there is one easy solution to
> > > this. Instead of going back and
> > > >> forth wondering if Foucault was influenced
> > > by him in In The Order of Things,
> > > >> what would happen if you just placed them in conversation with
> > eachother
> > > >> now? (Read closely and between the lines; read method and structure.
> > If
> > > >> nothing else Foucault seems to enjoy playing different roles, it is
> > worth
> > > >> looking closer at his masks). See what you
> > > end up with and how that changes
> > > >> your perspective on the other - you may find something that you
> > weren't
> > > >> expecting, which is the point after all in regards to better
> > understanding
> > > >> someone's perspective.
> > > >>
> > > >> Good Luck,
> > > >>
> > > >> Teresa
> > > >>
> > > >> On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Jeffrey
> > > Tallane <linactuel@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Hello
> > > >>> I really don't think Bergson was a source
> > > material for the order of things.
> > > >>> Certainly there can't be anything in common between Bergson and
> > Foucault,
> > > >>> particularly regarding the order of things
> > > where the conceptions of history
> > > >>> and time is in total contradiction with a bergsonian perspective.
> > Rather
> > > >>> for
> > > >>> sourcers you should look at Georges Dumézil, Martin Heidegger,
> > Borges...
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Jeffrey Tallane
> > > >>>
> > > >>> 2010/10/6 Allen Miller <pamiller@xxxxxx>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> > Thanks, that's really useful.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 7:13 PM, michael bibby <
> > shmickeyd@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>> > >wrote:
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > > Perhaps to give an indication of how Creative Evolution and The
> > Order
> > > >>> of
> > > >>> > > Things can be read together it is sufficient to juxtapose these
> > > >>> passages
> > > >>> > > taken from each of them:
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > "All around conceptual thought there
> > > remains an indistinct fringe which
> > > >>> > > recalls its origin."
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > "that space which is, for thought, on the otherside, but in
> which
> > it
> > > >>> > never
> > > >>> > > ceased to think from the very beginning."
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > All the best.
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > "I think it’s important to have a small number of authors with
> > whom
> > > >>> > > one thinks, with whom one works, but on whom one does not
> write."
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > --- On Fri, 1/10/10, Chetan Vemuri <aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx>
> > wrote:
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > > From: Chetan Vemuri <aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > >>> > > > Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Primary works
> > > >>> > > > To: "Mailing-list" <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >>> > > > Received: Friday, 1 October, 2010, 5:39 AM
> > > >>> > > > Is Bergson really necessary in terms
> > > >>> > > > of Foucault's sources? What about
> > > >>> > > > The Normal and the Pathological by Georges Canguilhem? I'd
> > > >>> > > > also throw
> > > >>> > > > in anything by Gaston Bachelard. If you're interested, you
> > > >>> > > > could also
> > > >>> > > > read Paul Feyeraband. He's not a Foucauldian but he was
> > > >>> > > > contemparaneous, was influenced by Bachelard, and dealt
> > > >>> > > > with parallel
> > > >>> > > > issues.
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > > On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 4:17 AM, michael bibby <
> > > >>> shmickeyd@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > > wrote:
> > > >>> > > > > I can do the opposite Zulfiqar: rather than provide
> > > >>> > > > you with secondary material on the Order of Things (no doubt
> > > >>> > > > your aware of the problems such 'commentary' poses, given
> > > >>> > > > the treatment which 'commentary' receives there), I can
> > > >>> > > > provide you with one of the source materials for this book,
> > > >>> > > > one of those books which Foucault seems to have been working
> > > >>> > > > closely with and writing his own alongside, and that is
> > > >>> > > > Henry Bergson's Creative Evolution, writen in 1907 and
> > > >>> > > > canonical for two generations of European scholars before it
> > > >>> > > > fell into relative obscurity. Another book worth taking a
> > > >>> > > > look at in this connection is Oswald Spengler's Decline of
> > > >>> > > > the West, writen in 1918 and enjoying a similiar popularity
> > > >>> > > > before the war.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > All the best.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > --- On Tue, 28/9/10, Zulfiqar Ali Philosophy <
> > zali@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >>> > > > wrote:
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >> From: Zulfiqar Ali Philosophy <zali@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >>> > > > >> Subject: [Foucault-L] secondary works
> > > >>> > > > >> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>> > > > >> Received: Tuesday, 28 September, 2010, 5:30 PM
> > > >>> > > > >> I have recently finished my Ph. D.
> > > >>> > > > >> work on Foucault in relation to Marx. I
> > > >>> > > > >> am looking for major critiques on the issue of
> > > >>> > > > *epistme
> > > >>> > > > >> *and on the major
> > > >>> > > > >> argument of The Order of Things. I request all of
> > > >>> > > > you to
> > > >>> > > > >> kindly identify the
> > > >>> > > > >> books or articles in this regard.
> > > >>> > > > >>
> > > >>> > > > >> Zulfiqar Ali
> > > >>> > > > >> Pakistan
> > > >>> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> > > > >> Foucault-L mailing list
> > > >>> > > > >>
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >>> > > > > Foucault-L mailing list
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > > --
> > > >>> > > > Chetan Vemuri
> > > >>> > > > West Des Moines, IA
> > > >>> > > > aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
> > > >>> > > > (319)-512-9318
> > > >>> > > begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (319)-512-9318
> > > >>> > end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> > > >>> > > begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (319)-512-9318
> > > >>> > end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> > > >>> > > begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (319)-512-9318
> > > >>> > end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> > > >>> > > begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (319)-512-9318
> > > >>> > end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> > > >>> > > > "You say you want a Revolution! Well you know, we all want
> > > >>> > > > to change the world"
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >>> > > > Foucault-L mailing list
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > _______________________________________________
> > > >>> > > Foucault-L mailing list
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > --
> > > >>> > _______________________________________________
> > > >>> > Foucault-L mailing list
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> Foucault-L mailing list
> > > >>>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Foucault-L mailing list
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Chetan Vemuri
> > > > West Des Moines, IA
> > > > aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
> > > > (319)-512-9318
> > > > "You say you want a Revolution! Well you
> > > know, we all want to change the world"
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >Chetan Vemuri
> > >West Des Moines, IA
> > >aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
> > >(319)-512-9318
> > >"You say you want a Revolution! Well you know,
> > >we all want to change the world"
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Foucault-L mailing list
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Prof. Machiel Karskens
> > social and political philosophy
> > Faculty of Philosophy
> > Radboud University Nijmegen - The Netherlands
> > _______________________________________________
> > Foucault-L mailing list
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
>
that Bergson's Evolution créatrice was a "source book" of The order of
things? More generally, on what sort of source can we rely to test such an
hypothesis?
As Machiel Karskens said, Foucault has certainly read Bergson as a student.
But it is still unsufficien to strengthen the hypothesis of Bergson as a
major influence on Foucault. But there are texts showing that other
philosophers who worked on the same kind of philosophical problems as
Bergson. for exemple: Edmund Husserl, Merleau Ponty, Binswanger, Hyppolite
etc It seems that they all had a big influence on Foucault during his
formation...
Cordially,
Jeffrey Tallane
2010/10/17 Teresa Mayne <teresa.mayne@xxxxxxxxx>
> I can see where you guys are coming from. Although, whether or not his
> 'philosophy' agrees with that of Bergson is a different question than
> whether or not he was influenced by him. For example, when I was younger I
> read much of analytic philosophy, particularly Russell and Frege. Now my
> work seems to be very different and does not agree with their philosophy,
> but I am always in conversation with them on a certain level and so I am
> very much influenced and impacted by that school of thought, along with
> others. So, would I say I am influenced or impacted by them? Absolutely;
> but an outsider wouldn't necessarily get that picture by simply reading my
> work.
>
> On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 7:51 AM, M. Karskens <mkarskens@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > I agree with this comment.
> > Foucault never mentions Bergson directely, he
> > just drops his name several times, and he did
> > not write explicitly on Bergson in contrast with Deleuze.
> > However, as all French intellectuals inbetween
> > 1930 and 1970 he read Bergson at least in his baccalaureat.
> > In my opinion he had not so much affinity wih
> > Bergson, cause of his aversion for
> > consciousness-philosophy, and Bergson was a heavy user of it.
> >
> > yours
> > machiel karskens
> >
> >
> > At 05:26 17-10-2010, you wrote:
> > >The most connection I can draw is that Deleuze and Foucault mutually
> > >informed each other during their early phases, and Bergson was a
> > >strong influence on Deleuze.
> > >
> > >On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 10:25 PM, Chetan Vemuri
> > ><aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > > That says more about overlap in ideas than it does about any possible
> > > > impact of Bergson on Foucault.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Teresa Mayne
> > > <teresa.mayne@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > >> Hello,
> > > >>
> > > >> I don't think that you can so easily discount Bergson's influence on
> > > >> Foucault, but there is one easy solution to
> > > this. Instead of going back and
> > > >> forth wondering if Foucault was influenced
> > > by him in In The Order of Things,
> > > >> what would happen if you just placed them in conversation with
> > eachother
> > > >> now? (Read closely and between the lines; read method and structure.
> > If
> > > >> nothing else Foucault seems to enjoy playing different roles, it is
> > worth
> > > >> looking closer at his masks). See what you
> > > end up with and how that changes
> > > >> your perspective on the other - you may find something that you
> > weren't
> > > >> expecting, which is the point after all in regards to better
> > understanding
> > > >> someone's perspective.
> > > >>
> > > >> Good Luck,
> > > >>
> > > >> Teresa
> > > >>
> > > >> On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Jeffrey
> > > Tallane <linactuel@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Hello
> > > >>> I really don't think Bergson was a source
> > > material for the order of things.
> > > >>> Certainly there can't be anything in common between Bergson and
> > Foucault,
> > > >>> particularly regarding the order of things
> > > where the conceptions of history
> > > >>> and time is in total contradiction with a bergsonian perspective.
> > Rather
> > > >>> for
> > > >>> sourcers you should look at Georges Dumézil, Martin Heidegger,
> > Borges...
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Jeffrey Tallane
> > > >>>
> > > >>> 2010/10/6 Allen Miller <pamiller@xxxxxx>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> > Thanks, that's really useful.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 7:13 PM, michael bibby <
> > shmickeyd@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>> > >wrote:
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > > Perhaps to give an indication of how Creative Evolution and The
> > Order
> > > >>> of
> > > >>> > > Things can be read together it is sufficient to juxtapose these
> > > >>> passages
> > > >>> > > taken from each of them:
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > "All around conceptual thought there
> > > remains an indistinct fringe which
> > > >>> > > recalls its origin."
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > "that space which is, for thought, on the otherside, but in
> which
> > it
> > > >>> > never
> > > >>> > > ceased to think from the very beginning."
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > All the best.
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > "I think it’s important to have a small number of authors with
> > whom
> > > >>> > > one thinks, with whom one works, but on whom one does not
> write."
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > --- On Fri, 1/10/10, Chetan Vemuri <aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx>
> > wrote:
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > > From: Chetan Vemuri <aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > >>> > > > Subject: Re: [Foucault-L] Primary works
> > > >>> > > > To: "Mailing-list" <foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >>> > > > Received: Friday, 1 October, 2010, 5:39 AM
> > > >>> > > > Is Bergson really necessary in terms
> > > >>> > > > of Foucault's sources? What about
> > > >>> > > > The Normal and the Pathological by Georges Canguilhem? I'd
> > > >>> > > > also throw
> > > >>> > > > in anything by Gaston Bachelard. If you're interested, you
> > > >>> > > > could also
> > > >>> > > > read Paul Feyeraband. He's not a Foucauldian but he was
> > > >>> > > > contemparaneous, was influenced by Bachelard, and dealt
> > > >>> > > > with parallel
> > > >>> > > > issues.
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > > On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 4:17 AM, michael bibby <
> > > >>> shmickeyd@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > > wrote:
> > > >>> > > > > I can do the opposite Zulfiqar: rather than provide
> > > >>> > > > you with secondary material on the Order of Things (no doubt
> > > >>> > > > your aware of the problems such 'commentary' poses, given
> > > >>> > > > the treatment which 'commentary' receives there), I can
> > > >>> > > > provide you with one of the source materials for this book,
> > > >>> > > > one of those books which Foucault seems to have been working
> > > >>> > > > closely with and writing his own alongside, and that is
> > > >>> > > > Henry Bergson's Creative Evolution, writen in 1907 and
> > > >>> > > > canonical for two generations of European scholars before it
> > > >>> > > > fell into relative obscurity. Another book worth taking a
> > > >>> > > > look at in this connection is Oswald Spengler's Decline of
> > > >>> > > > the West, writen in 1918 and enjoying a similiar popularity
> > > >>> > > > before the war.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > All the best.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > --- On Tue, 28/9/10, Zulfiqar Ali Philosophy <
> > zali@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >>> > > > wrote:
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >> From: Zulfiqar Ali Philosophy <zali@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >>> > > > >> Subject: [Foucault-L] secondary works
> > > >>> > > > >> To: foucault-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>> > > > >> Received: Tuesday, 28 September, 2010, 5:30 PM
> > > >>> > > > >> I have recently finished my Ph. D.
> > > >>> > > > >> work on Foucault in relation to Marx. I
> > > >>> > > > >> am looking for major critiques on the issue of
> > > >>> > > > *epistme
> > > >>> > > > >> *and on the major
> > > >>> > > > >> argument of The Order of Things. I request all of
> > > >>> > > > you to
> > > >>> > > > >> kindly identify the
> > > >>> > > > >> books or articles in this regard.
> > > >>> > > > >>
> > > >>> > > > >> Zulfiqar Ali
> > > >>> > > > >> Pakistan
> > > >>> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> > > > >> Foucault-L mailing list
> > > >>> > > > >>
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >>> > > > > Foucault-L mailing list
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > > --
> > > >>> > > > Chetan Vemuri
> > > >>> > > > West Des Moines, IA
> > > >>> > > > aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
> > > >>> > > > (319)-512-9318
> > > >>> > > begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (319)-512-9318
> > > >>> > end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> > > >>> > > begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (319)-512-9318
> > > >>> > end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> > > >>> > > begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (319)-512-9318
> > > >>> > end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> > > >>> > > begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (319)-512-9318
> > > >>> > end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> > > >>> > > > "You say you want a Revolution! Well you know, we all want
> > > >>> > > > to change the world"
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >>> > > > Foucault-L mailing list
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > _______________________________________________
> > > >>> > > Foucault-L mailing list
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > --
> > > >>> > _______________________________________________
> > > >>> > Foucault-L mailing list
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> Foucault-L mailing list
> > > >>>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Foucault-L mailing list
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Chetan Vemuri
> > > > West Des Moines, IA
> > > > aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
> > > > (319)-512-9318
> > > > "You say you want a Revolution! Well you
> > > know, we all want to change the world"
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >Chetan Vemuri
> > >West Des Moines, IA
> > >aryavartacnsrn@xxxxxxxxx
> > >(319)-512-9318
> > >"You say you want a Revolution! Well you know,
> > >we all want to change the world"
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Foucault-L mailing list
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Prof. Machiel Karskens
> > social and political philosophy
> > Faculty of Philosophy
> > Radboud University Nijmegen - The Netherlands
> > _______________________________________________
> > Foucault-L mailing list
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Foucault-L mailing list
>